Jayhawk,
Elaborate. Please. I'm at the end of my rope, so I won't see it until tomorrow morning, but I'd like to see your thoughts on this topic.
peace,
tj
god is dead
by teejay 52 Replies latest jw friends
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teejay
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DannyBear
Hello again Tj,
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
***Then too, if god has simply been an inactive viewer of human's affairs, our understanding of what "god is love" means would have to be amended.***
The expression itself wreaks of religious, inspired utterances. Early man with all it's inherant disadvantages; shelter, finding food, clothing, disease, early death etc..must have really reveled in those words "god is love". Every spiritual guru since Noah, has utilized such buzz words to encite the flock, to good works,or to give solace. Moses and David really whipping them up with an excess of 'godly' attributes.
***, the only thing he can be credited with is giving humans a brain and then letting them exercise free will in whatever direction (not always good) they saw fit, a course not unlike people fumbling around in a dark room trying to find their way out. Eventually they will.***
Yes it does seem so. Maybe all this fumbling around we have been doing, is now going to pay off. It really can go either way...with the Sadam's, BenLaden's, China imperialists of the world, still living a life style very similar to thier ancient brethern of the deserts. First offended last to appease? Will they, or those like them blow up the whole 'experiment', please tell me that after taking 1,000,000's of years of 'evolution' to arrive at this advanced stage, that our entire collective future's are not in such tentative hands!
God help us. lol***The natural balance found in nature, as violent as it occasionally appears, serves the biosphere much more adequately than what happens when humans stick their little fingers in. But here, imo, evolution is a satisfactory explanation***
This is exactly why evolution and I have a falling out. The sheer numbers of species and variations, all coexsisting in rythmic balance, seems to deny the premise of natural selection. These food chains, and check and balances seem to have always been in place. It is still very difficult for man to mess with the laws of 'mother nature'...I cannot just switch off, my inner turmoil about these unanswered questions...just like I did when gobbeling up the 'the truth' as proclaimed by our former religious professor's.
***." i still hope for that bright clean shiny "new world." ***
Your sister's simple declaration, is probably reflective of almost everyone alive today. Even those who would only enjoy it for a temporary time period, would probably love to see it. Hell, I settle for turning the clock back 30 yrs. and having a stab at it, all over again. Think I would do any better?
Take care my friend...enjoyed our little philosophy lesson.
Danny
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Yadirf
Teejay
Wouldn't THAT explain "god's" silence in all of this human suffering, especially in light of the fact that god is supposedly so loving and so concerned for humans? Why such a lengthy record of inattention and seeming indifference?
I think you are failing to take into consideration the more important issues, TJ. We do well, if we want to understand why it is taking so long for God to straighten things out, to consider the enormous problem that was created when members of BOTH the angelic realm and the earthly realm of God's intelligent creation called into question their Creator's right to govern the universe. As is generally the case, the bigger the problem the greater the amount of time that is required to overcome that problem.
We must remember that unless it has been determined/proven beyond any doubt that God’s way is unquestionably best the universe will not be able to enjoy the peace, security, and happiness that God originally intended. Be reminded that a certain one of the angels, namely Satan, an angel that had lived for a very, very long time, decided to call into question God’s way of running His universe. Additionally, a huge number of other angels took up Satan's side of the issue, apparently sometime after Satan had succeeded in getting Eve to succumb to his temptation so that she and Adam joined in the rebellion as well. That was no small problem introduced into the picture of things therefore.
Try to imagine the entire material universe one day filled with people. With every planet that swings around each and every sun (star) of each and every galaxy teeming with people, can you imagine the chaos that would prevail if there weren’t universal respect for God’s laws. And so, until the issue as to whether or not God’s way is right has been properly and undisputedly settled the welfare of the entire universe remains threatened ... both the spiritual realm and the physical realm.
As things stand right now, both the present heavens (spiritual creation) and earth (physical creation) have been corrupted. In other words they are not the clean, unspoiled realms for the angels and mankind that God first created. Remember that after He had finished with everything, He said that it was “good”. Hence there is a need to restore both realms back to their original state. When this has been accomplished then it can be said that there is “a new heavens and a new earth”. Once God’s right to rule has been settled, He will never again need to tolerate His way being called into question throughout all eternity.
Really, although it's not the easiest thing to appreciate, time has been on the side of those (both men and angels) who want to live forever in a peaceful, secure universe. I don’t know about you, but I can afford to wait for as long as it takes.
Friday
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Yadirf
Undecided
When you look at creation everything that lives, dies. This includes the sun, planets, stars and complete solar systems.
It really amazes me, Undecided, how it is that you, or anyone else, so confidently seem to believe what certain astronomers have claimed about the death of stars etc. To me that seems like such an absurd assertion for such star gazers to make, particularly in view of the fact that not a single one of them have themselves been around but for a short few decades ... and so certainly, therefore, haven't actually witnessed any of the things like this that they boast of having knowledge of.
My question to you is: Why are you such a 'doubting Thomas' when it comes to accepting what the Bible says but so quick to believe what some nutty professor has to say about a star that's so far away that it shows up as only a tiny speck of light even in the strongest of telescopes?
Friday
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terraly
Friday, Friday, Friday...
Perhaps you have not spent enough time gazing at the stars.
We see stars die all the time. The latest seen was on July 4th, a fireworks show that man in all of his fury cannot hope to match.
http://www.ggw.org/asras/supernova.html
We watch as they turn from peaceful little specks of light into a seething cauldron of super-heated star-stuff. These little dots of lines have huge amounts of information. We can see characteristic spectra telling us what elements are present, we can see dopler shifts in absorption lines telling us how fast the material is moving, we can look at the overall energy distribution and tell how hot the star is (or was).The majesty of the universe is awesome and fearful to behold. There are several astronomical events we have seen that if they happened anywhere within our arm of the galaxy would have enough force and power to completely destroy the earth. At the same time, we can peer deeply into the swirling clouds of dust and gas in which gigantic nuclear reactions are initiated...
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990519.html
Astronomy is a study of the universe- a universe with the majestic beauty of the above image and the destructive power of the above mentioned supernovae.
We live in such a universe (whether you believe God created it or not). You should contemplate its beauty as it unfolds itself to us, hundreds of times, to hundreds of thousands of different astronomers.
We have seen stars breath their last and die Friday- next to that, what is a sky turning to blood or a plague over the earth?
Take your eye and place it on the eyepiece of a telescope, do not doubt, but believe.
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philo
Teejay,
I thought you were gonna say Nietsche pushed down the pillars for you.
Equiano is a fascinating historical character. Especially the way he wrote his accounts so apparently effortlessly in the manner of classical/romanticism. As he writes of his early childhood in Africa, he is clear that that place is another world, but further, he might also be describing another person entirely.
I thought I might mention that Equiano didn't claim to have thrown himself into the water, he merely said that he wanted to do so, and given the chance.... He was receiving a beating at the time, tied down on deck.
Not to minimise his treatment at all, but its interesting how acute seasickness also brings on this same feeling, though probably never the action.
Thanks for reminding me of some enjoyable reading!
philo
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Yadirf
terraly
This is what I gleaned from one of the URL's you supplied:
While many supernovae have been seen in nearby galaxies, they are relatively rare events in our own galaxy. The last to be seen was Kepler's star in 1604.
Which is contrary to what YOU said here:
We see stars die all the time.
Were you alive in 1604?
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Yadirf
terraly
This is the URL to my personal site (that won't be there much longer).
http://4heavens.homestead.com/4Heavens.html
If you click on "Astronomy" over in the right column of topics you will be able to see the sort of telescope that I own. As you will notice, I never got as far as I initially intended with the site. There are however a few tabs that you can click on if you are that curious.
The picture of me with my two boys (under "Photographs") is almost ancient ... they are 36 and 37 years of age now. You can well imagine how much I've changed as compared to that picture.
You are invited to sign my guest book.
Friday
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Undecided
Hi Friday,
How can you explain God's love in view of ticks, fleas, mosquitos, viruses, parasites, which plague humans, animals and plants? Maybe his way of ruling isn't the best. Think, did man make these things or would the Devil make them to prove his way of ruling was best?
What is your explaination of them?
Ken P.
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JanH
By the middle of the 19th century, most of Europe's intellectual elite had indeed abandoned belief in the Christian deity. This was what Nietzsche referred to when he put the words "god is dead" into the mouth of the village idiot, or madman. As it's one of the most remarkable writings by Nietzsche, which says a whole deal, and also one very widely misunderstood and misrepresented, I provide what I hope is an accurate quotation of an English translation of this passage:
"Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"
As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances."Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from it's sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and again regarded his listeners; and they too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern to the ground, and it broke and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time has not come yet. The tremendous event is still on it's way, still travelling - it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the distant stars - and yet they have done it themselves."
It has been further related that on that same day the madman entered divers churches and there sang a requiem. Led out and quietened, he is said to have retorted each time: "what are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchres of God?""
From Friedrich Nietzsche's "Gay Science", see http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/philosophy/niet_quotes.html
- Jan
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Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]