Bush failure or stable Iraq? (page 5)

hillary_step

Spartacus,

I don't believe it has much to do with it but what does it matter?

As the lives of thousands of people depend on the *motivation* behind US foreign policy. It matters greatlynow, and it will matter greatly in the future.

Whatever foreign policy got us here put us in this situation, now what?

As you note, Bush pushed a stick into a hornets nest. His ignorance of the Middle Eastern mind, religion and politics led to a maelstrom from which he cannot extricate himself. What now? Hand the policing of Iraq over to a panel of Muslim nations, both secular and non-secular. Let them sort out their own future destiny and take care of their won problems. Vigorously determine a foreign policy based on an understanding of the needs of the Muslims and not the needs of Baptists.

I think it's really been a geo-political response, oil, and post 9/11 consequences. Bush took a great gamble of trying to change the types of governments that has great economic influence on the world, oil. And Bush felt that war would divert bigger problems down the road, we will see and as much as I don't like what he did, now we have to see this thing through. Hand wringing and tears will not do us much good now.

Yes, President Bush did take such a gamble and lost. Everybody else can see those so blinded by republican and religious dogma that they would, and will never see these issues against a balanced political and historical back-drop.

It strikes me as ironic that those who argued so strongly about the neccessity of invading Iraq ( and I do not neccessarily include you in this statement ), decrying opposers of this plan, now argue, "Now we are here, whatever foolish motive bought us here, we must see it through to the end" and *continue* to decry people for not having an answer to the future. It is not for the anti-war lobby to do anything but point out the nefarious motives that caused this mess, anything other than this would sound like the JW's who say, "Well, you do not agree with the WTS but waht do *you* have to offer"

The answer to the future is contained in the past. We must follow our footsteps back with a sense of humility not jingoism.

HS

Spartacus

Stopthepain,

Yeah, Kerry went because he had too and he tried to get out of it by requesting to study in France and when he was denied he devised ways to get out of Vietnam by contriving stories of his heroics to win purple hearts, 3 and out and that is exactly what he did with his officer position to take advantage of, he was out in 4 months or less. And he is so dayum sorry he relied on his sorry war record as the principle reason to elect him after 20 years in the Senate of sitting on his sorry arse, what a sorry sap he is. He is just another whiny, rich bastard who never wiped his own arse, to hell with him. Bush is no different, raised on a silver spoon, indulgence of these men during their formative years is not a plus for America. The men who ran this country before this sorry and selfish baby boom generation came up much differently, people who came up without maids, servants and privilege which allowed the kind of character that makes the kind of leaders this world needs. Kerry is from the selfish and indulgent baby-boom generation and he is the worst of the lot, a coward. The rich and powerful are not well suited to rule and is really a riddle that must be solved if we as a human species are to transcend our faults over time. The rich and indulgent are of poor character and because of their stature in society they are in the position to lead. Perhaps Bush?s religious convictions offset some of the rich living that instills sorry character in most people who live that way, perhaps not.

hillary_step

Upside Down,

hs- you state that half the world doesn't agree with the US and UK... which half? Half the governments? Half the people? Half the nations? Half the religions? Hell China and India alone have over 1/3 of the pop.

There have been international polls taken on this subject and published in the Newsweek magazine and they quite clearly show that the majority opinion of *all* polled nations are not sympathetic to this war. Are you *seriously* suggesting that the US has the backing of the rest of the world, the EEC, China, India for example in this war? Do some research.

Even Bush has not been stupid enough to fall into that particular trap.

HS

upside/down

I am perplexed at the lack of understanding of American politics.

The President in no way makes unilateral decisions. He has armies of advisors, Congress, the Senate, foreign allies etc. The President doesn't wipe his ass without input from panels of advisors and "focus" groups. It's amazing he gets anything done. It's constantly information overload, way too much for any one man to handle. Who's an expert on everything? Anyone?

Decisions have to be made, but there is a process. He is not Dictator of America. And for being such a f*ck up, how did he get elected? Did any of you see the blue/red map of the US by COUNTY!!! Bush whooped Kerry's ass, straight up! That is the American public making a statement. I'm not saying everything is perfect (far from it). But the American way is after the dude is elected we trust him to do the job. Our system of checks and balanced (media included) helps keep things as honest as they can be.

See how many other countries citizenry practice this... they are all for elections, till they lose than they just sieze power at gun point. This doesn't happen here. Our leaders dignify the arrangement by following it, win or lose. They don't defile it with the barrel of a gun.

Our system works, till something better comes along I will support it. Criticism is healthy, but only to a point.

u/d

upside/down

You still don't answer my question. Who are those polled?

In political circles it is a well know "fact" that Americans despise the French. Yet the largest amount of tourists and tourist dollars to the Frech economy come from the US. The average American loves the French. My best friend is from France, was a big-shot with Hewlett Packard and lives here by me. He assures me that the way governments feel is NOT necesssarily the way the people feel. I believe that.

Polls schmolls, I don't think the average world citizen gives a flyin leap about most of this- it's all politics and the "powers that be" are gonna do what they're gonna do. Your average "joe" just wants to make rent and take his girl out on friday night.

If it makes you feel important to be a critic, go for it. It's just like in Dub-land - NO ONE CARES and NO ONE IS LISTENING to you. This stuff is outta control for all of us. We can only work on US. Make the world a better place starting on our steet and in our neighborhood. Simple, yes, but it's the best we can do.

u/d

IronGland

Yeah, Kerry went because he had too and he tried to get out of it by requesting to study in France and when he was denied he devised ways to get out of Vietnam by contriving stories of his heroics to win purple hearts, 3 and out and that is exactly what he did with his officer position to take advantage of, he was out in 4 months or less. And he is so dayum sorry he relied on his sorry war record as the principle reason to elect him after 20 years in the Senate of sitting on his sorry arse, what a sorry sap he is. He is just another whiny, rich bastard who never wiped his own arse, to hell with him. Bush is no different, raised on a silver spoon, indulgence of these men during their formative years is not a plus for America. The men who ran this country before this sorry and selfish baby boom generation came up much differently, people who came up without maids, servants and privilege which allowed that kind of character that make the kind of leaders this world needs. Kerry is from the selfish and indulgent baby-boom generation and he is the worst of the lot, a coward. The rich and powerful are not well suited to rule and is really a riddle that must be solved if we as a human species to transcend our faults over time. The rich and indulgent are of poor character and because of the stature in society are in the position to lead. Perhaps Bush?s religious convictions offset some of the rich living that instills sorry character in most people who live that way, perhaps not.

Are you sure this isn't 'Ed Anger' from Weekly World News?

Spartacus

IronGland said: "Are you sure this isn't 'Ed Anger' from Weekly World News?" Who dat? This is my opinion if he and others see it this way then I would say Ed Anger got something right. Show me the link I would like to read it. Where's my bong? LOL :D

Spartacus

IronGland, did I have one too many zero's, thanks for the correction sir.

frenchbabyface

Spart : it could be much worse!

That's where I feel you are mistaken ... it could be much better (but I guess you are not interested - cause it means that you have to be stronger on the matter than following BShiters for actually their own good !)

roybatty

I would like to see a stable and democratic Iraq but I do not think that will happen while Bush and co are involved. All they care about is the oil. That is all they have put real effort into securing.

Yeah, just look at all that cheap oil streaming out of Iraq and into the US, oh,,,,er...I mean streaming out of Iraq and into companies owned by Bush & Co.....oh...er...um...

If they really wanted to control the oil in Oraq, why not do it the U.N. way and bribe Iraqi officals and ripe off the people of Iraq? Isn't that the European way?

This election is a complete farce and would not be tollerated in the US. Would they have held elections in Washington for instance with the sniper running around? Of course not ... and yet you will label whatever fiasco Bible Bush dishes up and call it inspired.

Yeah, and then we'd be hearing you say "Oh, look, Bush & Co. cancelled the elections because they don't want a free Iraq..."

Oh, and I think it already counts as military failure. You have proven to the world that you cannot occupy a country that has had 10 years of sanctions and bombings despite having the worlds biggest military. I bet the Iranians, North Koreans and Chinese are pissing themselves laughing.

Military failure? Why? Because the U.S. doesn't control every street? Like I said before, the U.S. will be out of Iraq and it will be a stable country way before the Brits are out of Ireland. Talk about military disasters.

Bush failure or stable Iraq?

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