Bush failure or stable Iraq?

by Spartacus 100 Replies latest social current

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :only the opinion of the Iraqi people will truly matter.

    Yes well, when the Americans are gone from Iraqi land, perhaps those Iraqi people will have a feeling somewhat analogous to what Americans felt after the revolution.

    One thing is clear, Bush did not conduct his war with a plan to make the Iraqi people partners in their own freedom, and for that unforgiveably stupid, treasonous, and arrogant-beyond-belief mistake, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have died, and thousands of Americans have been killed or incapacitated.

    I think what many people forget that just because a war happened, and viola, here I am a hundred years later!, doesn't mean that war was necessary or righteous.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    hs- since when (as I stated) do WE give a flyin f*ck, what these other nations think? When China frees Tibet and India gets rid of it's nukes and they have their own house in order MAYBE I'd listen.

    The French and Germans stayed out of the conflict STRICTLY because they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

    I was amazed the US did anything, because it's had it's tail betweeen it's legs for decades, thanks to "liberal" types. The sleeping giant finally woke up and started kickin ass and now those that can't compete cry "fowl", oh well call CBS and complain.

    The world can kiss the US and UK's arse! I think the UN should be consulted... oh wait they kinda screwed up that whole oil for bribes food thing, didn't they? To the tune of over $10B. but who's counting- certainly not the UN. Where are all the bleeding hearts when it comes to the UN coughing up what it STOLE?

    The Iraqi's will now be on a different path (like it or not), and whatever may come of it I just hope it's better than what they had!

    To the victor goes the spoils!!!

    u/d

  • Valis
    Valis

    Foreign Affairs

    Ayatollah Democracy

    Arrogant, dogmatic, and anti-American, Iraq's Shiite clerics are the last people enlightened Westerners want to see in power. Let's hope they prevail

    by Reuel Marc Gerecht

    .....

    N ajaf, the holy center of Shiism in Iraq, sits on the edge of a desert, parched and plain. Two-story plaster and concrete houses compose most of its historic quarters. Nowhere does one find the palm trees, the grass, and the mud that accompany the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, the double spine of Mesopotamian civilization. The town's largest open square is a sprawl of dirty khaki-colored tents. In the market, frequented by locals and religious pilgrims, there are no exotic smells, and no music; for sale are only pilgrimage trinkets, small household appliances, cheap clothes, Korans, religious commentaries, and the basic necessities of daily life. From early morning until late at night pedestrians and cars clog the streets. Traffic jams are Volvo junkyards, and even among the most devout the town is known as the "village of Volvos"; Saddam Hussein flooded Najaf with them during the Iran-Iraq War, hoping to buy the loyalty of Shiites, who made up the bulk of his Sunni-led army. Everywhere in Najaf, too, one can sniff the dead. From the golden-domed shrine of Caliph Ali, where the faithful carry their deceased loved ones to bless and commend them, to the town's enormous graveyards, where for centuries hundreds of thousands of lucky Shiites have been buried, a pilgrimage for the dead endlessly repeats itself. The faith envelops one in Najaf.

    The political future of Iraq may be determined here. The town is home to Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani, Iraq's most influential Shiite cleric and the man who, on June 29 of last year, issued a fatwa that almost instantly unraveled America's go-slow planning for the postwar reconstruction of Iraq. The fatwa asserted that the United States had no legitimate role to play in determining Iraq's new political makeup?an announcement that made international headlines and exerted a profound effect on Iraqi public opinion. Yet almost no observer has pointed out what was most remarkable about the fatwa?namely, that despite its having been issued by a powerful religious leader who has devoted his life to the study of Islamic law, it was a flawlessly secular proclamation that clearly and concisely established "the people" as the final arbiters of Iraq's political system.

    Sistani's fatwa is worth quoting.

    The Occupational Authority in no way has the authority to choose members for the drafting committee of a Basic Law. In no way does any authority exist for such a drafting committee to represent the lofty interests of the Iraqi people or to translate into law the wishes and basic identity of the Iraqi people, the pillars of which are the glorious faith of Islam and society's values. The current [American] plan discussed is fundamentally unacceptable.

    Accordingly, popular elections are necessary so that each Iraqi who is of voting age can choose his representative for a constituent assembly. And then any Basic Law written by this assembly must be approved by a national referendum. It is incumbent upon all believers with their utmost commitment to demand this, and asserting the truth of this path is the best way that they can participate in this process.

    In Islamic history this opinion is unprecedented. Its references to Islam verge on the pro forma. It makes no allusion to any duties that man owes to God (huquq Allah), which is a theme common in both traditional and modern fundamentalist thought. Instead it speaks the language of inalienable rights: one man, one vote; and a constitution written by elected representatives and approved by popular referendum. In this one bold stroke Sistani managed to launch, and garner popular support for, a project that Muslim progressives have only ever dreamed of: establishing a democratic political order sanctioned and even protected by the clergy. The critical moral imperative in Islamic history?"al-amr bil-maruf wa al-nahy an al-munkar" ("commanding right and forbidding wrong")?appears in one shape or another eight times in the Koran; for modern Islamic militants it has become a war cry. It justifies the morals police in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan, and the neighborhood bands of young men who harass "improperly" attired Muslim women in Baghdad and Marseilles. But by seeking to blend politics and faith into a rational system in which government is clearly the servant of the commonweal, and by advancing the idea that Muslims have the right to determine the nature of the government over them, Sistani and his colleagues have transformed a commandment previously confined to holy law into a pillar of a new democratic order. This brings to the fore an uncomfortable truth: traditional Shiite clerics, often dismissed as dogmatic medievalists intent on building a theocratic state, may well represent Iraq's best hope for a successful transition to democracy. As such, they have become perhaps the most important actors in modern Middle Eastern history.

    When the Coalition Provisional Authority realized, in the fall of last year, that Shiite clerics would be politically crucial in U.S.-occupied Iraq, it wasn't a happy discovery. American diplomats and intelligence agents in Baghdad were used to dealing with highly Westernized Sunnis in the Iraqi elite or thoroughly secularized Shiites in exile. And most journalists who have spent time in the Arab world have done so in the company of Sunnis and Christians, the parents of modern Arab nationalism. Shiite clerics often aren't much fun face-to-face. They tend to exude far less personal warmth than their Sunni counterparts, who are more egalitarian and informal. Inclined to talk elliptically or dismissively to foreigners, and endowed with the sort of hubris that comes easily to accomplished lawyers, they are for many U.S. officials enormously frustrating partners in rebuilding Iraq. By insisting on more democracy sooner than the Provisional Authority believed was safe, they failed to act according to plan. They resisted approving an interim constitution?the Transitional Administrative Law?that checks the superior power of the Shiite community at the ballot box, and they have now stated that they may not honor the version of that constitution signed by the members of the Iraqi Governing Council, including its Shiites.

    As a result, U.S. officials have become uncomfortable with and often vexed by Iraq's traditional Shiite clergy; and with various clerics now declaring their anti-American allegiances more openly than ever, that discomfort is only likely to grow. Sistani could well come to be viewed in Washington as the ringleader of an increasingly hostile Iraq. But we shouldn't necessarily fear the anti-Americanism of the Shiites, or think less of Sistani if he collides with the unelected transitional government. His actions may confound the Bush Administration's timetable for Iraq, and they may spark large street protests that could turn violent, but they will demonstrate that Sistani is indeed leading the faithful toward a democratic understanding of Muslim mores.

    S istani's efforts build on the unintentionally democratic consequences of Iran's experience with Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. It was in Najaf that Khomeini perfected his political theory of a cleric-led Islamic revolution. He lived in Najaf from 1965 to 1978, when Iran's Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi unwisely had Saddam Hussein boot him out of Iraq; Najaf was too close for comfort for Pahlavi. Khomeini and his lieutenants moved to a Paris suburb, where, no longer under Iraqi surveillance, they let loose a torrent of anti-Shah propaganda by radio, cassette, telephone, and fax?and soon showed that the Islamic clergy could call a king to account. Khomeini transformed the Shiite clergy into an organized vanguard to propel the masses into the streets. In 1979 he submitted the idea of an Islamic republic to an up-down popular vote. Regular elections, with some element of competition, are now essential to the regime's conception of its own legitimacy.

    But Khomeini was obviously not a democratizer. His goal was to install a ruling clerical elite devoted to the Koranic concept of an absolute God. Once in power, he and his colleagues gutted the Iranian constitution (initially drafted by pro-revolution liberals), removing any meaningful commitment to democracy. In the process he demolished the legitimacy, though not the fact, of absolute clerical rule, thus paving the way for Sistani's current efforts.

    Even among those who view Sistani as a stabilizing force in Iraq?he has, after all, reached out to Sunni Arab clerics, has worked against the young anti-American Shiite firebrand Muqtada al-Sadr, and usually recommends cooperation, not confrontation, with the occupation?suspicions about his political intentions abound. Some look askance at his "Persianness." Like many other Shiite clerics in Iraq, he is Iranian by birth and early education. There is something unsettling in many American?and in many secular Iraqi?eyes about the political ascendancy of Persian mullahs, even if they've spent more than fifty years in Iraq. Some people simply don't believe that one of them will ever be able to subordinate Islamic holy law to the ever-changing norms and dictates of democracy.

    My view, based on conversations I've had during the past several months with Shiite clerics in Iraq, is more sanguine. In Najaf I met with Izz al-Din al-Hakim, the youngest son of Iraq's second most powerful Shiite cleric. "Khomeini was a great man," Hakim told me evenly, as he guided me through Najaf's twisting walkways to the home in which Khomeini had lived?an old, unpainted, sand-scratched wooden house with small barred windows. "He triumphed over the Shah, who was not a good man to his people. But Khomeini is the past. His way is not the future of Iraq." I also met Sheikh Muhammad al-Haqqani?a highly respected teacher and senior cleric of Iranian origin, who is close to Sistani. At his religious school in Najaf, Haqqani invited me to join a group of Iraqi and Iranian clerics for a spread of lamb, chicken, and river fish. "We want a non-Islamic government that is respectful of Islam," he told me during lunch. "There is a serious discussion of the Islamic Republic and the idea of Islam in Iraq. After Saddam there is a strong desire to have more Islam here. We will not be Turkey. The Turkish Republic is offensive to the idea of Islam. However, very few people want to see an Islamic revolution and the velayat-e faqih [Iran's "rule of the jurisconsult"]. There is no strong desire here to copy the Islamic Republic."

    The clerics I spoke with were aware of the stakes, at home and abroad. "We need the Americans, but the Americans need us," I was told by Sayyid Ali al-Waiz, a senior Shiite cleric at Baghdad's Kadhimein shrine, one of the holiest in Iraq. "Democracy in the Middle East will not be possible without us." Dressed in white, Waiz was bedridden and weak (if not dying) from twenty-three years of detention under Saddam. When I asked about the possibility that an anti-democratic Shiite militancy would gain the upper hand in Iraq, Waiz mildly reproved me: "We are all agents of Sistani, who is our marja ['source of emulation'?the highest rank for a Shiite cleric]. He is a rational religious scholar. He wants us to live religious lives, but not have religion dictate politics. We must have democracy, not revolution, in Iraq."

  • fleaman uk
    fleaman uk

    I blame Britian in allowing Hitler to build forces that started WW2 that killed 100's of millions of people, so what does that matter?

    Spartacus.A lot of what you said is drivel.But this took the biscuit!

  • xenawarrior
    xenawarrior
    Let's face the facts here , the facts indicate that the religious fundies all grouped together and condemned gay marriage then went out and voted for GW .It's the only reason why people voted anyway .

    You might want to check your "facts" there heathen. The facts actually indicate something quite different.

    11 states had the gay-marriage amendment on their ballots and it was passed in all 11 states. The people spoke and they said they want marriage in the U.S. to be between a man and a woman. 2 of those states went to Kerry.

    What is interesting about the facts is that in 10 of those 11 states more people voted against gay marriage than voted for Bush. And by huge numbers. Here are the stats:

    Arkansas: Votes for Bush: 572,898 Votes for the amendment: 753,770 +180,872
    Georgia: Votes for Bush: 1,914,254 Votes for the amendment: 2,454,912 + 540,658
    Kentucky: Votes for Bush: 1,069,439 " " " " 1,222,125 + 152,686
    Michigan Votes for Bush: 2,313,746 " " " " 2,698,077 + 384,331
    Mississippi: Votes for Bush: 671,084 Votes for the amendment 924,653 + 253,569
    Montana: Bush 265,473 Votes for the amendment 294,056 + 28,583
    North Dakota Bush: 195,998 " " " 222,899 + 26,901
    Oklahoma: Bush: 959,655 Amendment yes: 1,075,079 + 115,424
    Ohio: Bush: 2,796,147 Amendment yes: 3,249,157 + 453,010
    Utah: Bush 612,623 Amendment yes: 562,619 - 50,004
    Oregon: Bush: 890,698 Amendment yes: 979,049 + 88,351
    Total number of extra "religious fundies" who 2,174,381
    didn't vote for Bush but did vote that marriage
    is between a man and a woman.

    Over 2 million more "religious fundies" out there voting for whom? Not Bush. It makes it pretty clear that the anti-gay marriage stance transcends party lines and is not just a religious, conservative issue.

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    Over 2 million more "religious fundies" out there voting for whom? Not Bush. It makes it pretty clear that the anti-gay marriage stance transcends party lines and is not just a religious, conservative issue.

    Bush, love 'em or hate 'em you cannot deny he is his own man. He's not afraid to state what he believes in. He knows he's going to get flak for his strong religious belief yet he doesn't hold back from mentioning them. It cracks me up seeing many Democrats (i.e. Hillary) toning down their "liberal" speech and injecting "God talk" whenever they get a chance. Just like they were all on the "let's take care of Iraq" bandwagon a couple of years ago but when it wasn't going to be a nice, quick, victory they suddenly went "oh, we didn't vote for that...blah blah blah."

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    The Iraq War is a monsterous, tragic & unecessary mess. That said, alot of real people including children are suffering and dying in Iraq. It would be ludicrous to wish America a loss to prove Bush made a mistake to invade Iraq. We already know the war is a mistake. Enough said. America and allies have invaded Iraq and have laid ruin to her. It's only right that they all try to make a good outcome to this very real nightmare. Forget about Bush. You can't do anything about him now. He's into his second term. Condi will probably become Sec. of State. All we can do is hope to God that someone with enough power can figure out a solution, and do it before thousands more suffer and die. Let's hope they can resolve this while there is still an Iraq left to stabilize. Let's hope the powers that be can come out of this without completely exhausting our armed forces and resources and costing us billions more in tax dollars.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I find this cartoon to be darkly amusing. The thing is, with rumors of Iran problems on the horizon, you wonder if all this could be the beginning to WW III

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I love this one, too.

  • Incense_and_Peppermints

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