Are These the Last Days?

by individual 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    individual,

    A careful reading of Matt 24 will allow you to see that the things mentioned as a "sign" of Christ's presence, including earthquakes were precisely what Christ told his disciples NOT to assume were part of that "sign." I suggest you carefully read Matt 24 again, and note these things: after being asked for a "sign" in verse 4, Jesus starts with "Look out that nobody misleads you." He then proceeds to list those things that COULD mislead his disciples, including earthquakes, and concludes that those things were A beginning of pangs of distress.

    So far, that prophecy was meaningless. All the things Jesus had outlined had been going on for generations before Jesus and have been occuring in all the generations after him. Apologists like the WTS ASSUME Jesus meant there would be more/bigger/better/different episodes of earthquakes and wars and that those more/bigger/better/different episodes would be supremely evident to anyone with half-a-brain. Amazing gave you good advice when he suggested you read Carl Olaf Jonnson's book on the subject. He thoroughly demolishes each and every claim of the WTS surrounding their interpretations of statistics and other data about how "bad" things have been in this and the previous century compared with times past.

    Too many people including the WTS things that when Jesus said something he didn't actually mean what he said. I'm sure he meant what he said.

    Now, if you were to ask me a specific question and I discussed the matter for a while and then finally said, "The specific answer to your specific question is this," would you consider the answer to be all the discussion that preceeded the actual answer, or the actual answer itself?

    The specific question was "what will be the sign of your presence?" The specific answer is found in Matt 24:30. The answer is clear as a bell. And it ain't happened yet.

    As far as being in the "last days" goes, it's been about 730,000 actual days since those words were allegedly spoken. Given that, I'm not putting check marks on my calendar in eager anticipation.

    Farkel

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Individual

    I have several points to make with regards to your title-question.

    1) Yes, from one particular standpoint man's system is in its "last days".

    2) Jesus' prophecy of Matthew 24:7 hasn't even began to be fulfilled.

    3) The fact is, is that Jesus never suggested that "earthquakes" would be a part of the "sign" that would indicate the imminence of his presence and the imminence of the end of the worldly system of self-government.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Now, to expand on point 1: Any student of the Bible should know that God has determined to tolerate man’s system for the duration of what it takes to allow for 7 "kings" (of a certain sort) to have held sway over the earth. The 13th chapter of Revelation, when properly understood, provides the basis for what I just said. Also the 2nd and 7th chapters of Daniel augment these conclusions. There is no denying that the system has entered its 7th phase (7th head of the wild beast), and, one would think, has used up quite a bit of its allotted time … because this 7th “king” has been reigning since the 6th “king”, Rome, fell.

    With regards to point 2: What shows that Matthew 24:7 has yet to be fulfilled is the fact that nothing that has happened to date has produced the required results. What I mean by that is that there has not been strife between nations that has resulted in the collapse of man’s governmental system of things. Any astute student of the Bible should be able to recognize the connection between the “death-stroke” that is to befall the 7th head of the wild beast and Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:7. It therefore becomes obvious that Matthew 24:7 hasn’t undergone fulfillment as yet, simply because the death-stroke (a collapse) has not happened. Neither of the two world wars produced such a death-stroke, also referred to as the “sword-stroke”. The fact that it is called a sword-stroke is really a dead give-away that there is a connection to be made between it and the international strife that Jesus foretold at Matthew 24:7. It might be noted also that the 6th chapter of Revelation is helpful in that it adds weight to these conclusions.

    As to point 3: There are a few scholars of the Bible that know that the Greek word “seismos” (Matthew 24:7), translated as “earthquakes” in the great majority of versions, has no reference at all to that which today is commonly referred to as “seismic” activity. Instead, it is understood by these to refer to shakings of the established system itself. Such shakings of course are to be experienced as a result of the great, yet to be realized international strife that Jesus said would take place as a consequence of Satan having been confined to the earth. The fact is, is that there is substantiation in the 24th chapter of Matthew itself that Jesus said nothing at all about “earthquakes”. And this is one reason that I have come to appreciate the Society’s interlinear translation, the KIT. It seems to be unique by reason of the fact that, in a certain way, it makes the admission that Jesus didn’t say “earthquakes”. For example, if you have the KIT, turn there to verse 7 and what you will see under the Greek word “seismos” is “[earth]quakes”. By enclosing the word “earth” in brackets it is shown that the word earth is not part of the expression. Of course there are different sorts of “shakings” (which is what the word “seismos” actually implies) that have nothing to do with earthquakes, there being several examples in the Bible. And, had Jesus actually meant “earthquakes”, then there was a Greek word at his disposal that he could have used in conjunction with the word seismos to express that. But he didn’t do that, leaving it to the discretion of his disciples to decipher what he meant. And, there are those that have done just so.

    Friday

  • individual
    individual

    To Yadirf

    I was a JW for 25 years - am I wrong in thinking that the society has placed great emphasis in its publications on the fact that earthquakes were part of this sign. I have read this fact over and over again. Not once was it implied this meant a shaking of the foundations of this established system. Did I miss something!!?? The deathstroke was apparently fulfilled during the first world war (refer to Revelation Climax book page 190). The society states that the 7th head acting as the dominant world power endured a death stroke that brings great distress to the entire wild beast. It then goes on to show that the first world war was the death stroke. And all this is straight from the horses mouth - I have the book beside me now.

  • Noble07
    Noble07

    No one can accurately or scripturally say these are ‘the last days.”

    That may be a surprising statement to many professing Christians, because it is such a popular belief that we are living in ‘the last days’. But take a concordance and look for the phrase "last days" in the Gospels. Jesus never used it, despite Bible topic headings in many translations of chapters like Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

    What about the Apocalypse or Revelation which was given to Jesus? (Revelation 1:1) Surely, this most apocalyptic book uses the phrase "last days"? Or, "time of the end"? Is it fair and honest to include the phrase "last days" atop Bible pages as if these words occurred in the main text below? For example one translation begins Matthew chapter 24, "Christ’s presence, last days." On Mark chapter 13: "Signs of the last days given" and "Signs of last days continued." The same happens with Luke chapter 21.

    NO ONE CAN CLAIM JESUS EVER USED THE WORDS "LAST DAYS."

    But, what about his disciples who wrote later? What “Last Days” Did His Disciples Have in Mind? Peter, Paul and James all use the phrase "last days." But, what "last days" were they talking about?

    PETER'S "LAST DAYS" regarded Jerusalem. Peter uses the phrase "last days" in his Pentecostal speech to his Jewish audience. Read Acts 2:16, 17: ‘No this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28-32 LXX), "In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."’ (RSV) Is it fair to state that Peter applies these "last days" to those disciples who were experiencing the spirit’s manifestations and his contemporary audience? [It is noteworthy that the words "last days" do not occur in Joel 2:28-32. Peter gives his quote an inspired paraphrase.]

    Peter is to use the phrase "last days" another time in his second epistle: ‘First of all you must understand this, that in the last days (ESCHATOU TON HEMERON) scoffers will come.’ (2 Peter 3:3 RSV) Some are tempted to apply this to some "generation" long after Peter’s time, right up to our own period at the beginning of the 3rd Millennium. How can we know to what "last days" Peter was warning about? The disciple Jude answers this for us because he actually quotes Peter and applies it to his own times.

    Note Jude’s words: ‘But you, beloved, must remember the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; for they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers."’ (Jude 17, 18 RSV) Does it seem fair to say Jude has Peter’s words in mind? Jude, like Peter, applies the phrase "last days" to the approaching end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age, just as the Nazarene foretold in Matthew 24:4-20 and Luke 21:7-24.

    PAUL'S "LAST DAYS". Among the most famous occurrences of the phrase "last days" is the one used at 2 Timothy 3:1, ‘You (Timothy) must understand this, that in the last days (ESCHATAIS HEMERAIS) distressing times will come.’ (RSV) Some translations omit the singular "you" in this verse somewhat obscuring the fact that Paul has Timothy in mind. A reading of the whole context from 2 Timothy 2:14 to 3:9 would seem to confirm Paul’s warning that the "last days" were those upon Timothy and his "generation" who would witness the end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age. How can we be sure of this?

    Paul (if he be the writer of Hebrews) uses a phrase highly similar to "last days" in Hebrews 1:2: ‘But in these last days (ESCHATOU TON HEMERON) God has spoken to us by a Son.’ (RSV) Is it misinterpreting matters to say Paul calls his contemporary times "last days"?

    THE "LAST DAYS" OF THE DISCIPLE JAMES. James uses the phrase "last days" also: ‘You have laid up treasure for the last days (ESCHATAIS HEMERAIS).’ (James 5:3 RSV) Is it fair to say James has those rich Christians of his own day in mind as the "end" of Jerusalem draws closer?

    All of these rare occurrences of the phrase "last days" all deal with the end of Jerusalem’s Temple Age just as Jesus Christ foretold. (Mark 13:5-23)

    A few students and commentators believe "the last days" began in the first century and continue down to our own time. Was there an "end" to those "last days" upon that Jewish generation with its Temple in Jerusalem? This subject introduces another word: "consummation" or "conclusion."

    In Matthew 24:3 when the disciples asked about Jesus' prediction of the Temple’s desolation they use the Greek word (possibly from Matthew’s own translation of the Hebrew) synteleias. This word in Greek is translated by Jerome in his Fourth Century Vulgate as consummatis for the word means "with + end" or "ending together"; that is, a conclusion or consummation. This word is possibly borrowed from Daniel 9:26, 27 ‘And after the sixty-two weeks, the Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him; and He shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ... and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed, he shall appoint the city to desolations. ... and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end (SYNTELEIAS) of the time an end (SYNTELEIA) shall be put to the desolation.’ (LXX) This was the prophecy from which Jesus drew his own words at Matthew 24:15. The synteleia the disciples had in mind was "the end" of Jerusalem’s Temple. Would this not indicate "the last days" on that Jewish generation with its sacred Temple had an end, conclusion, or consummation? Those particular "last days" did not continue on for many centuries more. (Matthew 28:20)

    Paul uses SYNTELEIA himself when discussing the "last days" upon the Jewish Temple Age. Note Hebrews 9:26, ‘But as it is (Christ) has appeared once for all at the end (SYNTELEIA) of the age.’ This later phrase "the end of the age" is exactly the same of the disciples’ question at Matthew 24:3. Does this not prove Paul believed, in fulfillment of Daniel 9:26, 27, and in agreement with the Nazarene’s apostles, that there was then, in his own time, "the last days" to culminate in a "conclusion" upon the Jewish Temple Age? Would this limit any Christian teachers today from predicting the last days and "the time is at hand"?
    “The Time is at Hand?”

    Most have overlooked the Nazarene’s warning immediately after the disciples asked their question about the SYNTELEIA, particularly the way it is worded in Luke 21:8:

    ‘BEWARE THAT YOU ARE NOT LED ASTRAY; FOR MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME, AND SAY ... "THE TIME IS AT HAND!" DO NOT JOIN THEM!'(RSV, BY, NJB)

    How much clearer would our Lord have to make it? If any who claim his authority, asserting they are "the Anointed" (Mark 13:22) and prophesy, "The Time Is At Hand!" they are not to be followed or believed. Such a "presumptuous" prophet need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

    When Will We Know We are in the “Last Days”? Or does this mean there will never be any "last days"? Not if we judge the Apocalypse correctly. An "end" will come following the Return of Christ. The Books of Daniel and Revelation foretell a period of three and a half years of Great Oppression ('Great Tribulation' in many renderings) on the Saints just prior to the parousia of Christ. Jesus gives the single "sign" which will mark the imminence (within hours) of his parousia and this will be seen by the Saints and all the earth at the same time. The Nazarene predicts: ‘Following (the Great Oppression) . .. . the Sign of the Son of Man will become visible in the sky and all the tribes of earth will mourn as they see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of the atmosphere.’ (Matthew 24:29, 30 NSR) The parousia follows the Great Oppression.

    When that future "generation" witnesses celestial phenomenon, the Sign of the Son of man, and the visible Return of Messiah, then we will know our "redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:28 RSV) Only then will Nazarene Saints be able to say these are "the last days" and "the time is at hand."

    Who is authorized to say: “The End has come”?

    Only after the Saints are raised and 'raptured' to the Celestial Throne Room (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 11:12; 15:2) will THE SEVENTH ANGEL rightly declare: "THE END HAS COME!" (Revelation 16:17 PME)

    Robert

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Individual

    I have had trouble posting when I want to ever since yesterday evening. I have this message show up: “There has been a problem! To avoid 'spam' posts, you are limited to 25 posts within a period of 1 day(s). Please wait a while a try re-posting later. Use you back button to correct the problem.”

    I know that I went the limit of 25 posts yesterday, but I’ve only posted (and edited some of those) about 4 or 5 times today. I don’t know what’s going on.

    Anyway, you said:

    I was a JW for 25 years - am I wrong in thinking that the society has placed great emphasis in its publications on the fact that earthquakes were part of this sign. I have read this fact over and over again. Not once was it implied this meant a shaking of the foundations of this established system. Did I miss something!!?? The deathstroke was apparently fulfilled during the first world war (refer to Revelation Climax book page 190). The society states that the 7th head acting as the dominant world power endured a death stroke that brings great distress to the entire wild beast. It then goes on to show that the first world war was the death stroke. And all this is straight from the horses mouth - I have the book beside me now.

    No you are not wrong, you are obviously well informed about what the Society has taught and which they for the present still adhere to. And, your correct in saying that the Society hasn’t implied that Jesus words meant “a shaking of the foundations of this established system.” And so, no, you didn’t miss anything.

    You say “the death-stroke was apparently fulfilled during the first world war (refer to Revelation Climax book page 190) etc.” Yes, these things ARE the explanation that has been given by the Society. But, those thoughts are due to undergo refinements. Look for the prophecy of Daniel 11:35 to be fulfilled within the Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I hope that I live long enough to witness it, because Jesus prophecy of Matthew 24:7 (which, of course, precedes the appearance of the 8th “king” and Armageddon) will not undergo fulfillment before the ‘refinements’ spoken of in that verse of Daniel have been accomplished.

    Friday

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Do you guys want another question. That is: "Are you guys blind?"

  • individual
    individual

    Yadirf

    Interested by your comment on the refinements that are due to happen to the societies understandings. How do you know this? Is this just what you are expecting or is there more to this?

  • JanH
    JanH

    The WTS definately did teach that there had been a dramatic increase in earthquakes after 1914. To "prove" this, they misquoted scientists and journals, they published fraudulent statistics and lots of outright nonsense.

    «"There Will Be . . . Earthquakes in One Place After Another."-Matthew 24:7. From 1914 until now, there have been many more major earthquakes than in any other like period in recorded history. For over 1,000 years, from the year 856 C.E. to 1914, there were only 24 major earthquakes, causing some 1,973,000 deaths. But in the 63 years from 1915 to 1978, a total of some 1,600,000 persons died in 43 great earthquakes.» (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, p 149)
    «Since 1914 C.E., there has been an increase in the number of earthquakes, resulting in much distress. . . . These statistics are a means of indicating the extent of suffering from earthquakes during this period of history.» (Insight on the Scriptures, v1 p 670 "Earthquake")

    «None of these things are unique to our century. So if they were to identify "the conclusion of the system of things" they would, in some way, have to differ from like conditions in previous times. In what ways? . . . Second, the effects of the sign would have to be felt worldwide. Jesus spoke about "all the inhabited earth" and about "all the nations."-Matthew 24:9, 14, 30, 31 and Mt 25:32. Third, the combined conditions or symptoms would have to grow progressively worse during this period. "All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress," Jesus said.-Matthew 24:8.» (w84 4/15 p 4)

    Please take note of the last quotation. Both globality and the "signs" growing progressively worse was part of the sign itself. It was a necessary component or there was no sign.

    There seems to have been some backtracking in later years, even though their position remains essentially the same.

    Worth noting is that the WTS no longer claims that growing progressively worse is a necessary component.

    «In this regard, note what the book Natural Disasters-Acts of God or Acts of Man? has to say: "There is no evidence that the climatological mechanisms associated with droughts, floods and cyclones are changing. And no geologist is claiming that the earth movements associated with earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunami (earthquake waves) are becoming more violent." Similarly, the book Earthshock observes: "The rocks of every continent contain a record of innumerable major and minor geological events, every one of which would be a catastrophic disaster to mankind if they occurred today-and it is scientifically certain that such events will occur again and again in the future." In other words, the earth and its dynamic forces have more or less remained the same throughout the ages. Hence, whether or not some statistics indicate an increase of some forms of geologic or other activity, the earth has not become uncontrollably violent in recent times.» (w93 12/1 p 6)

    «Let us remember that while Jesus' prophecy indicates a climax in man's history as all these events come together in the same generation, they do not require that they be greater in number or magnitude than in any previous generation, even though that might be so.» (g88 4/8 p 4)


    So easily could the WTS abandon its whole project in proving that an increase in earthquakes in our time is evidence of the endtimes.

    What, pray tell, then remains of the "sign" when there is nothing to distinguish earthquakes in our times from earthquakes in earlier times? Only the habitual thinking of millions of blind followers of the blind.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • individual
    individual

    To Fred Hall

    If we were blind we would not have spotted the societies problems with 607 and with its continuing assertions of increased earthquake activity as a sign of the last days.
    Nothing stacks up.
    Are you blind?

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus
    Yes, these things ARE the explanation that has been given by the Society. But, those thoughts are due to undergo refinements.

    Yadrif:

    Please substantiate this statement. Individual doesn’t know you like we do, and he/she may mistake the sense of “inside information” about changes implied in your words as more then what it is, eg: empty speculation.

    There are a few scholars of the Bible that know that the Greek word “seismos” (Matthew 24:7), translated as “earthquakes” in the great majority of versions, has no reference at all to that which today is commonly referred to as “seismic” activity.

    A few scholars? Amazing how “god’s channel” just doesn’t pick up on these grammatical things. And yet we’re supposed to continue to recognize their mantle of authority? Several of the other things you mentioned have been floating around for years. The Society will make changes because the intrusion of reality will force even those lords of denial to make unavoidable adjustments in the propaganda. You now how pesky that new light can be.

    About Fred Hall - just ignore him Individual, pretend he's some kind meaningless background noise (which he is). He's not only blind, but stupid too.

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