Are These the Last Days?

by individual 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Thirdson

    This is just a little something for you to chew on with regards to a few verses of the 11th chapter of Daniel.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    What’s what?
    (A verse by verse consideration)

    Verses 30b and 31 foretold the destruction of the Jewish temple by Rome that took place in 70 C.E. -- a consequence of the Jews failure to stay true to the old Law covenant, which finally culminated in their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.

    Verse 32: Here, time has moved forward into the 4th century. By this time there are many who claim to be under the new covenant (instituted by Christ) that have become something less than staunch defenders of genuine Christianity. Such ones were led into “apostasy” when Roman emperor Constantine decreed that Christianity (in reality a mock imitation of the real thing) was to become the state religion. This marked the birth of Christendom. -- Matthew 13:24-30.

    Verses 32b thru 35 apply to the history of genuine Christianity throughout the centuries, intersecting our day, and up to the time of the "eighth king" of verse 36. -- Revelation 17:11.

    Verse 33 particularly fits the period since the latter part of the 19th century. The movement that began with C. T. Russell in the 1870s at times enjoyed an increase in the amount of 1000 persons per day added to their ranks as the result of the disciple making activity. Unlike Christendom, every individual sees Jesus’ instructions at Matthew 28:19-20 as applying to them personally.

    Verse 33b well describes the tribulations which modern day Christians have endured. -- See the 750-page book, Jehovah’s Witnesses -- Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom (1993).

    Verse 34a attributes their survival to divine intervention and assistance. -- 2 Corinthians 4:9.

    Verse 34b indicates that among genuine Christians there would be those whose association is motivated by selfishness rather than out of a love for God and the doing of his will.

    Verse 35 indicates that somewhat late in the history of man’s system of self-rule, but before its “time of the end,” “some” fellow Christians would take exception to what they discern to be erroneous concepts regarding what is being taught about such “time of the end.”

    Verse 36 describes a future one-world government that will attack genuine Christianity in an attempt to exterminate it (vs 44).

    Friday
    .

  • circe
    circe

    Francoise:

    IMO, this and so many other of our philosophical/religious problems arise from an inability to shed the dead skin of olden, primitive and savage concepts of who and what God is.

    I second this statement!

    There may be the last days of our slow progression toward that species of spiritual maturity that will elevate our thinking to realize that God is not the savage spirit-demon of Horeb who is just a cut above a Chemosh or a Baal, but instead is a loving father...

    Again, I agree. It's taken me a long time to come to a similar conclusion.

    Why is it that so many equate disbelief in the Bible to not believing in God? Frustrating!

    circe

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Copernicus

    Of course, I guess I could join you and the other self-ordained prognosticators here and resort to posting my own ramblings and musings as to what portions of it mean.

    If I had no more confidence in what I thought than what you indicate about yourself here I believe I’d keep my mouth shut too.

    More proof? ROTFL! Prove to YOU and ALL onlookers? Prove what?

    Quit hiding behind nonsense, you know what I said. I said, “Prove to me and all other onlookers that I’ve misinterpreted Daniel 11:35.” One way you can do that is to explain how the verse should be understood according to your perception of it. Now get busy, or else shut yer trap (the flies are getting in) … after admitting first of course that you haven’t the faintest idea regarding what it means.

    By the way, wasn’t it the Pharisees who kept demanding proofs? Hopefully the parallels won’t escape you.

    What an excuse for getting out of a jam. Shoot, my puppy could think of much better outs than that.

    Daniel 11:35 makes reference to “the time of the end”. Before I answer your questions, prove to me and all onlookers that we’re in this specified time period. Unless you can do so, your argument and your interpretation is moot, and undeserving of further comment. Considering the assertions you’ve made, that particular burden of proof falls on you. And I’ll be right here waiting.

    The “time of the end” hasn’t begun yet. According to Daniel 11:35 such “time of the end” is not reached until the “refining work” mentioned in that same verse has been accomplished.

    Yes, somehow “those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings” are those who have absolutely no influence whatsoever on policy, or the levers of power. How they “get this ball rolling” has yet to be explained.
    Yes, how DO they get the ball rolling? Do tell.

    You’ll know it when you see it.

    Friday,
    going contrary to the lords good advice by giving that which is holy to a dog. -- Matthew 7:6.

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus

    Cowdip:

    I visited your home page link last night (and read your letter to the WTS) in hopes of being better able to understand the preenings of a sanctimonious buffoon such as yourself; and to my surprise what I found there was a fairly well reasoned piece of apologetics. So, did you score any points with the boys in Brooklyn for challenging their entire belief system in such an ingratiating way? We’re left hanging on the outcome, though I’m sure the fact that their 120 some odd years of accumulated ravings could be so easily dismantled by someone like you was a brief cause for some concern.

    Your depiction of the “Treasure Store of Knowledge” as an allegory was a bit off the mark, in my opinion.
    You might update it as follows: think of it not a treasure box, but as a refrigerator. One that is stuffed chock full of baloney. As some of the baloney gets old, and starts to spoil and stink (so much so that anyone can notice the smell) it has to be removed and replaced with new baloney. And so on, and so on.

    You had said:

    If you had a good argument to offer you would offer it.

    With that in mind then, let’s widen this argument out, and make it a bit more inclusive, shall we?

    I think that most here would at this point agree that the Watchtower’s eschatological theology has failed abysmally. As might be the case with a dead star, it is imploding at an accelerating pace even as we speak. This poses no real problem in and of itself, except when apologists, such as yourself (and by extension, apologists who’ve attempted to resuscitate every failed religious system), refuse to allow it a gracious though deserving death.

    Instead, in your determination to prop up the Society as God’s instrument on earth, (as I said previously) you resort to taking something written thousands of years ago and seek to superimpose it over a set of contemporaneous circumstances that appear to you as having some discernable connection. This stems from your belief in bible inerrancy, and the peculiar form of circular reasoning that infects all WT sycophants, ie: that the WTS as an entity, is acting as God’s agent (in some form) and so therefore its inherent failings must be defensible through various exegetic explanations and justifications.

    In this you are no different then the chain of individuals who came before you (including Russell, Rutherford, et al), and others whose roots extend to attempted explanations of first century failures. In large part, the song remains the same.

    As I’ve said before, ideas such as you, YK, and others present here are not new – they did not originate with you, and they’ve been circulating for years amongst the brothers. Why is this so? Because as a brother I know once said: “there is nothing stronger than the will to believe.” And since you want to believe it so badly, you’ll conjure up any vatic revelations, or specious arguments (scriptural or otherwise), to feed and sustain it. This is tolerable until you begin to claim quasi-inspiration as you have on this thread (in so many words), and as all of your predecessors have done before you.

    Why has the Society not adopted these new ideas that you’re so enamored of? Especially since they (the lords of denial) are bereft of any originality themselves, and time and circumstances have proved their doctrines false? Obviously, they are NEVER going to throw out the baby with the bath water by immediately gutting core tenants.What will happen is that they’ll slowly drain the tub a cup at a time, diluting the polluted remains with new infusions of water (or baloney if you prefer). After all, the sort of doctrinal modifications you’ve suggested would destabilize the whole order, particularly the concept that light (in any form) originates with them.

    As you can see, rather then continue to trade pointless barbs, I thought I’d sum up our exchange, as I see it, in the above.

    Finally:

    I’d asked:

    Yes, somehow “those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings” are those who have absolutely no influence whatsoever on policy, or the levers of power. How they “get this ball rolling” has yet to be explained. Yes, how DO they get the ball rolling? Do tell.

    To which you replied:

    You’ll know it when you see it.

    Hmmmmm. . . is that the best you can do? Or as a “dog,” am I not entitled to a proper answer? You’re full of it Friday, and you know it. It further brings to mind your own words. . .

    Like I said above, you have yet to prove what you say. All you really ever do is make statements like you just did, no proof offered.

    You took umbrage at my earlier mention that you seem to be speaking for God, and claiming to understand his thoughts. I found your following statement revealing in that sense:

    going contrary to the lords good advice by giving that which is holy to a dog.

    The definition of Holy is: “Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence.”

    So, it seems you actually imagine that the ideas you’ve presented here are somehow “holy.” Interesting.

    Copernicus

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Individual,

    Are you still stuck on 607 BCE? Your brain cells doesn't stack in your brain.

  • individual
    individual

    To Fred Hall

    The only reason I have been stuck on 607 is because it is the cornerstone of the JW belief system.
    To the society, Daniel 11:35, if memory serves me right, was fullfiled by the breakaway during the early years of Rutherford.The society normally changes things when it becomes obvious that their previous beliefs are false, they dont change things because of a love of the truth. The change in the generation shows this, time was up and nothing had changed. This was not altered because of a love of the truth. The refusal to acknowledge the evidence for 587 and therefore the knock on effect on 1914 is another example, if they loved truth they would seriously consider reassessing this doctrine regardless of the consequences.
    The rigidity of their holding onto their central doctrines, some of which have been brought under question, shows a lack of regard for the real truth that I am sure God has noticed.

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Not completely on-topic, a bit of humor: http://www.simpleton.com/19971024.html

    "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Dmouse

    Thanks for the great site on Earthquakes, it would have come in handy yesterday at the meeting when the speaker of the public talk said that Earthquakes have been on the increase since the 1960's. Can't wait to show this site to my step-son. Thanks.

    By the by, from an orthodox point of view, we've been in the last days since Jesus' ascencion.

    Yeru

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus
    The refusal to acknowledge the evidence for 587 and therefore the knock on effect on 1914 is another example, if they loved truth they would seriously consider reassessing this doctrine regardless of the consequences.

    Precisely!

    And Introspection - thanks for a little humor injection, that page was a hoot.

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Copernicus

    Cowdip:

    Your depiction of the “Treasure Store of Knowledge” as an allegory was a bit off the mark, in my opinion. You might update it as follows: think of it not a treasure box, but as a refrigerator. One that is stuffed chock full of baloney.

    That is so funny. I’ve been about to fall out of my chair, I'm not kidding. I don't agree with you of course, but that issssssssss awfully funny. You are witty, even for an apostate. You just haven’t got any sense.

    I think that most here would at this point agree that the Watchtower’s eschatological theology has failed abysmally.

    Believe it or not, that's not the determining factor with the Almighty. And besides, the anointed never claimed parity with the prophets in the Bible.

    Instead, in your determination to prop up the Society as God’s instrument on earth, (as I said previously) you resort to taking something written thousands of years ago and seek to superimpose it over a set of contemporaneous circumstances that appear to you as having some discernable connection. This stems from your belief in bible inerrancy,....

    Of course I accept the Bible as being inerrant. If it weren't so, it wouldn't be the Word of God.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I've got to break this off for the moment, perhaps I will return later today.

    Friday

    PS> I'm thinkin' 'bout changin’ what I call you from Capricious to Cuss. That be okay? Afterall, it's shorter and almost true to the last three letters of your screen name. Awe shoot, I don't know, perhaps I will use them both ... I'm kinda fond of both of them. How about you, you got any preferences?

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