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by Delta20 145 Replies latest jw friends

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Not to mention the fact that I have 2 children to think of - this means THEIR future as well - if I raise them in "the truth" that will set the stage for the course of their entire life, for the potential for great heartache if they don't measure up to "JW standards" - and that's not a price I'm willing to pay.

    OK, I dont have any kids myself but I understand your concern. But this means you are choosing not to "pay up the price". I can understand that too. There are many examples in the bible of people who have suffered great loss in the name of God. I would suggest reading the book of Job again. That man lost all of his children ones! Of course at the end he had new children, but that doesn't take away the hurt and feelings for the children that were lost, its not like "Ow I can stop feeling sad about my lost children because I have new ones", at least at the present time it isn't. But what it teaches you is that, if you keep the faith, not only will God save you, but your children can be saved too (I imagine that Job's first children will get a ressurection). Its something only you can decide, either believe, with the chance that if its all true that you, your husband and your children will get a new life in a paradise, or disbelieve, and lose this chance. I agree that the JW-standards are high, but that is parallel to what has been said in the bible, that the path of the truth is small and narrow.

    The things about the paradise might seem stupid to believe, same with believing in angels and Satan and all the other things. But think about it really carefully... in the end it makes sense, and it gives use, a goal, it adds more purpose to your life. All arrows point in the direction that there is a God, and that we are here because of his will. So it might be smart to not dismiss this believe so easily. Just my few cents ;)

    My faith in God is without question, I have faith in Him wholeheartedly and I always have. It's my faith, or lack thereof, in the WTS that is at issue here. I have no problem instilling Bible principles in my children, and I intend to do that. My concern about my children not "measuring up" by JW standards refers to the social structure/expectations within the Kingdom Hall. I will raise my children to question things every bit as much as I do - and as I have demonstrated before, a questioning spirit is frowned on by JWs. I will raise my children to be accepting and tolerant of ALL people - not just people LIKE THEM - which is not in line with the JW spirit of being as far removed as possible from worldly people, not having worldly friends, etc. I find that concept reprehensible. It precipitates an "us vs. them" or "we're better than they are" mentality, which is unacceptable in my book.

    It reminds me of something my husband told me once. When girls would approach my husband's best friend (also a JW) and start being friendly with him, his friend would turn his nose up at them and walk away without even acknowledging their presence. When my husband asked him why he did this, his friend replied, "Why would I want to talk to HER? She's not a witness, she doesn't even exist to me".

    If either one of my children ever behaved in such a way I would smack the attitude right out of them (no, not literally). My point being, I will not raise my children that way, nor will I let an organization raise my children for me in a way that is unacceptable to me. Let's remember that Jehovah reads the heart in judging his children - I am confident that in reading my heart he will understand my devotion is to him, and not to an organization. My husband's childhood friend, on the otherhand, had better watch out - I don't think Jehovah will be too happy when reading his heart.

  • RescueMe
    RescueMe

    Delta20
    I just wanted to be clear on this point that you stated:

    Havent I admitted already that organizations can be flawed and people make mistakes... if I didnt then here it goes: organizations can be flawed and people make mistakes.

    You admit that humans make mistakes correct?
    Organizations can be flawed correct?

    If those "mistakes & flaws" cost human lives, is it worth it to continue to believe what those mistaken humans and flawed organizations are claiming, knowing that they have been wrong before? How is anyone supposed to trust in future claims made, knowing that past claims have been wrong?

    If you went to a doctor to diagnose a medical condition and found out later that the diagnosis was wrong and you lost a limb, or an organ, or suffered through a treatment that wasn't needed, but only caused you some discomfort (and you had to pay for this with your own $$$), would you continue to go to that doctor and trust in his judgement? Would you say that well, one mistake was made, they have discovered their error and corrected it, so now I will give them the benefit of the doubt and trust their judgement?
    If you found out that your accountant was cheating you, would you continue to use that accountant? Would you allow this accountant to repent, and then say, well they have learned a new way of keeping the books, and now I don't worry about them cheating me any longer? If you caught this accountant cheating you again, would you continue to trust this accountant?
    If you found out your car mechanic was wrong, and it cost you your car due to wrong repair would you continue to to reccomend this person to others? Would you take your new car back to this same mechanic? Would you say to yourself, well, maybe they won't be wrong this time, or maybe they have learned something new or realized their error, so perhaps this time it will be okay?

    Would you continue on this path of trusting those who have previously been wrong?

    If you say no, then why would someone trust their spiritual well being in an organization that has been wrong on so many occasions? Because they are changing their stance? Does that not show that they have been proven wrong, otherwise why the need to change? If they were wrong previously, then what is to say they won't continue to be wrong?

  • Delta20
    Delta20

    SixofNine,

    My thinking is just fine thank you. My thinking is so fine that I think that I cannot possibly think what God thinks. But if you have special God thinking powers then thats pretty neat, though I don't believe that you have. The truth is that you think that it's petty if God cares more for a symbol of life than life itself, and if you read the bible it is explained that there are things which you would probably call a symbol of life which is worth more then (this) life. Obeying commandments like Do not murder and Do not bow before a false God are sufficient enough for you to, if you are in the situation, die for before disobeying them. Does that mean God is a petty God? That's what you make of it, and those are words that you put in my mouth (by use of a type of ad hominem). I never said that. I must admit that some things I do not understand. I don't understand why God would rather have my life to be taken away when I can save it simply by bowing in front of a statue. But I do know that God is the one who gave me my life, who created me. That + the promise of eternal life in a paradise gives me enough reasons to obeye his commands.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Jason:
    As someone who was a JW Elder and left of their own accord, I would sincerely suggest that you acknowledge the the concern being expressed to you, on this thread. If people here didn't care, they would simply leave you to your fate.

    This is another case of your mom being right. If they are given half a chance, the JW's will remove your brain and put it on a box marked "Not to be opened until Christmas"!!!

  • Delta20
    Delta20

    RescueMe,

    Would you continue on this path of trusting those who have previously been wrong?

    Good question,

    Would someone, when he closed a deal with a group of good people and their children, and their childrens children and so on, and later some of these children fail to meet their end of the deal at one time, break the deal? When they fail to meet their end of the deal some more, would you break the deal then? Turns out God himself, in the bible, is a forgiving God. His own people, the children of Israel, failed to keep their part of the deal time and time again. And he didn't break it. And after this failing of his people happened more and more and more, God sent his Son to them. And even after they killed his Son, he extended the deal not only to his people, the children of Israel, but to everyone.

    Certainly, we can see that God keeps up with those who have previously been wrong. He would even save a mass murderer who gets a change of heart. Shouldn't we try to do the same thing? My claim is that the deal itself, which I keep calling the JW religion, is good. And yes, the people, and even the entire organization makes mistakes. In ancient times, God would send prophets to show the people who do wrong that they have to change their ways. We don't have those anymore, but we can still try, together, to change wrong policies and make them right.

    The analogies you supply miss something that the JW do have, the correct faith.

    LittleToe,

    Jason:As someone who was a JW Elder and left of their own accord, I would sincerely suggest that you acknowledge the the concern being expressed to you, on this thread. If people here didn't care, they would simply leave you to your fate.

    This is another case of your mom being right. If they are given half a chance, the JW's will remove your brain and put it on a box marked "Not to be opened until Christmas"!!!

    First of all, the name is Jaron, notice the R. ;)

    Second, I do acknowledge the concerns being expressed to me, Ive learned a lot here, and I am just trying to redo the favor by not agreeing with all of you, but showing you where the examples and analogies you bring forth to 'bash' the JW are wrong. I think we are having a good and healthy discussion here, and you are all free to make up your own minds, as am I. But don't think I am here disagreeing with ya'll because I hate ex-JW's or because I dont want to believe what you all say. I'm not an undercover JW, I am just a man in search of spiritual guidance, and so far, even with all the problems the organization has, JW still appeal the most, purely based on what they believe, and not on how they believe it.

    But it's great to see people here really care. You say you were an elder, what was it for you that made you step away from the JW?

  • RescueMe
    RescueMe
    Good question,

    Would someone, when he closed a deal with a group of good people and their children, and their childrens children and so on, and later some of these children fail to meet their end of the deal at one time, break the deal? When they fail to meet their end of the deal some more, would you break the deal then? Turns out God himself, in the bible, is a forgiving God. His own people, the children of Israel, failed to keep their part of the deal time and time again. And he didn't break it. And after this failing of his people happened more and more and more, God sent his Son to them. And even after they killed his Son, he extended the deal not only to his people, the children of Israel, but to everyone.

    Certainly, we can see that God keeps up with those who have previously been wrong. He would even save a mass murderer who gets a change of heart. Shouldn't we try to do the same thing? My claim is that the deal itself, which I keep calling the JW religion, is good. And yes, the people, and even the entire organization makes mistakes. In ancient times, God would send prophets to show the people who do wrong that they have to change their ways. We don't have those anymore, but we can still try, together, to change wrong policies and make them right.

    The analogies you supply miss something that the JW do have, the correct faith.

    You are eqating the WTBS with God?

    How do you know that the JW have the "correct faith"? How can you know that? Could you as a human, trusting in an organization be mistaken?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Jaron:
    (Sorry about the misspell )

    But it's great to see people here really care.

    We do

    You say you were an elder, what was it for you that made you step away from the JW?

    I came to realise two very important things. Firstly, they aren't really Christian in any sense than trying to attain some kind of pharasaical rule-following standard that's loosely based on some stuff that Jesus said, interspersed with Old Testament rules that Jesus allegedly "fullfilled".

    Secondly, I swiftly came to realise that quite a number of their other teachings weren't biblical, either (especially if you take the to the litmus test of being true to the WHOLE context of the bible, as they claim).

    It sounds like you are fairly deep in, and fast approaching baptism. I genuinely hope you spend these last few weeks seriously studying what you've been taught. Your local JW's may seem to be really nice people, and I wouldn't necessarily give rise to doubt that, for a minute. However being nice doesn't make them right. They are a small sect that beats it's own drum vigorously, with no greater proportion of "nice" people than any other insular denomination.

    I can totally understand if you are feeling a little defensive (who wouldn't be, considering the response you've recieved from your well-meaning comments), however folks are only expressing serious concern, for very good reason, in the best way they know how. That alone should be food for thought. We've travelled the path that you are now on, and been through the other side. For many of us it was a very dark section of road - not the "way" of light, truth, Christ, or light burdens, that had been promised us.

    Peace to you, friend.

  • Delta20
    Delta20

    RescueMe,

    You are eqating WTS with doctors and engineers. As for how I know they have the correct faith, well, I'm not 100% certain about that yet (otherwise i wouldn't be here) but so far its the best out there so thats why I call it the "correct" faith. Maybe not such a good choice of words, better to say "best believe out there." Why this is, well, couple of reasons, mostly that I have to agree with their visions on the correct interpretation of the bible (trinity, most prophecies, teachings of Jesus, and much more). Something else that I really like about them is that try to be scientifically correct, and they are very succesfull in that (yes they've made mistakes, but also lots of good calls) like the things they write about evolution, psychology, family life, and especially love. Most other religions I know either dont interpret the bible correct, or a lot of their teachings dont come from the bible at all, are trying not to mingle with science, or if they do believe evolution could be possible, etcetera. So thats some reasons for me to concider JWs the best out there that i have seen so far.

    LittleToe,

    Could you give me some examples of their teachings that aren't biblical?

    Ow, and Ive not even started going to KH yet, I went to a few meetings (maybe 5 or 6) about 5 years ago when I was 15, but as I said before I was hold back by my mom. So I still have to start with everything, don't think I'll be ready for baptism anytime soon ;) Least Ive learned here is to postpone baptism until Ive spoken to the community/elders about asking questions or having doubts after baptism, and about some of the incidents displayed in threads on these forums ;)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    About now people generally ask the question "but where shall we go to?".

    That's a neat twist that is often heard from JW lips and is actually a perversion of Peter's words in John 6:68.
    To finish on a far more positive note, if the Christian path is for you then "WHO shall we go to?" is a far more appropriate question. The answer isn't to be found in either a religion or a book, but rather in a person (IMHO).

    As with everything else in life, let the buyer beware!

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Jaron:We cross posted.

    I would simply ask that you start with Christ.

    • If the JW's are so right, how come Thomas wasn't reprmanded in John 20:28?
    • Was Luke 18:19 a denial or a question to draw out what was believed about him?
    • Why did Paul concentrate his sole ministry on simply preaching Christ (not the Father) as seen in 1Cor.2:2?

    As for much of the other stuff (including scientific accuracy, etc.) I would suggest you continue reading this site for a great education on the subject of JW "truth"...

    Meanwhile may I offer that I am truly happy that you found this place

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