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by Delta20 145 Replies latest jw friends

frenchbabyface

Welcome !
JamesThomas

Welcome Jaron.

So you honestly think you are not easy to brainwash?

Has it ever touched upon you that the Source and Sustenance of this wondrous universe must be infinitely more than the tiny and limited man-like deity depicted in the Bible?

Are you conscious of the striking similarities between your beloved God of Armies, and all other man-made anthropomorphic deities throughout time?

Has it ever occurred to you that rather than God being a tiny fragment moving about in the universe as your religion teaches, that the universe is but a fragment within God?

Dear Jaron, you were brainwashed shortly after you were born, and everything you have come to learn and believe since is all based upon those lies.

You're young, there is hope.

j
bebu

Hi ya Jaron, and welcome!
Doesn't finding truth mean a process of learning and testing--and even retesting? Truth can withstand the tests of time. If religion is about truth, and if you want to search for truth above all else, then you will have to be ready to re-examine many things.
Realize that some people on the board are re-examining the basis of the Bible for belief; but others, like me, find the Bible a compass that points them to knowing God. It sounds like you might have that sort of foundation already, so let me start from that.
I think it is best to start with easier stuff than right in at the harder stuff. So, I ask you to leave aside the various arguments about how one verse is interpreted by group A versus group B.
The WTS makes some extraordinary claims for itself. That it is the mouthpiece of God, for one. That it is God's visible organization on earth, for another, and that one cannot be saved unless one is in or associated with this organization. In science, there is a maxim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Even Jesus listed Scripture, his miracles, the witness of John, and the Voice from heaven as testimony in addition to his own, about himself. What, I wonder, is the extraordinary positive testimony/proofs for the WTS? It always seems to boil down to a few things: "Love" for the brothers (and sisters); that only JWs are doing the "preaching work"; that they alone work to keep separate from the world; that JWs alone revere the true name of God ('Jehovah'); and that they alone were approved by Christ in 1918 to be his organization.
On this site, and in my JW friend's life, I have come to see an appalling lack of Christian love. The ripping apart, so totally unnecessary, of families. My JW friend was mistreated for years by her husband, but no help came from the elders beyond "pray more, be a better wife". Where were all her "brothers and sisters" when she was left suicidal? When her husband (always in good standing) abandoned her and left her destitute, where was her Christian family? They were busy patting themselves on their backs for never missing a meeting, never missing field work, doing "Jehovah's work". I think she would not be alive today, except for the coincidence that I happened across her in this wretched situation.
Yes, I know that there ARE great JWs. My point is, even while keeping the organization "clean" and above reproach for Jehovah's sake... why is it that they are so defiled when you finally see them up close? Are you aware of the JW victims of child molestation that were silenced on threat of disfellowshiping? How can any organization from God ever allow that, let alone command the policy from the top?
As far as keeping separate from the world, and trusting in Jehovah and not the Scarlet Beast, I suggest you read up on the 10-year secret involvement of the WTS as an NGO with the "disgusting thing" they judged other religions for being associated with (as NGOs): the UN!
Copy the following, and google it. Then click the first link. It takes you to a document on the UN's website. You might find it very interesting...
site:un.org watchtower
Now, another thing that they have kept hidden for many years is the testimony they have given in Scotland, about how they require UNITY AT ALL COSTS--even at the EXPENSE OF THE WORD OF GOD. I wonder if you would feel ready to rush after the WTS if you read their testimony:
http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040312/DOCTRINE/10527012
The line in the transcript above that utterly amazes me is this one:
Q. (The WTS requires) A unity based on an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.
Jaron, I think that before you try and work thru the finer points of which religion is true, or which denomination has a better interpretation/overview of the Bible... you should be able to discern that the Bible quickly eliminates the WTS from the running, by virtue of 1) its well-known false prophecies 2) its requirement that believers accept false prophecy 3) its documented hypocrasy by associating with the UN and 4) its lack of love toward the needy and helpless.
I guess you could say that the above are the "extraordinary proofs" that the WTS is NOT God's "organization" on the earth.
If there is some theology/interpretation that you find appealing in the JWs, may I suggest a unitarian church? I disagree a lot with the unitarians, but at least, with that group you won't be required to follow their lead at the cost of your Bible-trained conscience.
Anyway, I do want to welcome you to the board. If you disagree with what I've shown you, I hope you would help me understand where I've erred... Because if I am indeed sincerely wrong, and the JWs are right, would you not owe it to me to show me where I have been mistaken, for the sake of my life?
bebu
Delta20

Hey again,
First I want to say: WOW. This board is really active, I have been creator, moderator and so on of many forums (I work for MMORPG's as Community Engineer) but this one competes with those of the best online games ;) *claps*
Now back to business. There's an awful lot Ex/Contra-JW's here. I am only 19 years old and although I have read much already, I dont nearly have the knowledge that you guys, especially combined, have. I am no one man army, I am not here defending the Watchtower organization, I am actually here for a very selfish reason, namely to find out wether JW's will bring me closer to the truth then other religions will, and the slightly positive slide which I am on at the moment can still go either way. Truth, funny word is that actually. No one on this earth knows "the truth". No watchtower, no scientist, no one. We can only get closer to the truth as we go along. You all have some form of religion... is that form of religion the truth? If so I would most certainly like to know how ud know that for 100% sure. The point is that we cannot say anyhting about the truth. Suppose I'd say "We dont know the truth". If I said that, and thats what I would believe, then that statement would be a contradiction in terms for then the truth would be that i dont know the truth. So I cant even say that about the truth. So I rather wish not to speak about the truth, and I wont even wish to find the truth, because If, for example, I would see God with my own eyes, there would be thousands of psychiatrists telling me how it was an illusion, yadda yadda. Unless God reveals to all of us his masterplan, we have no business with the truth as it is.
So if I'm not looking for truth, then what am I doing. Well, I am doing the next best thing, I am looking for knowledge (I am studying both Philosophy and Theology atm). If I gather knowledge about God, about Nature, about as much as I can find, then I can try getting near the truth. But knowledge isn't everything, because what is knowledge when you dont have love? You can know much, but if you cant use that knowledge to help people, then what good is it? So I am searching for knowledge and love. This is how I ended up with JW's, they are one of the few organizations that I know of that give you room for both. Yes I have read your stories, Yes, the watchtower is isnt always right, men are corrupt. But from what Ive seen, the brothers and sisters do share love, and maybe im lucky that it runs in the family (my dad is ex-JW, but my half-sis who is special pioneer still talks to him) but thats something I need. And of course, the JW's, same as you guys, give room for study. I have never met an organization where most of the people know so much about the bible. Maybe its just "the same talk" everytime, but its much much better then no talk at all.
I don't believe in brainwashing. As much as I am 'defending' the JW's here, I will be 'defending' what you guys say and what I read here when i talk to the JW's. That does not take away the fact that I am still pushed to do the 2 things that I mentioned above, gather knowledge and love. People can change. Organizations can change. If theres something rotten in the WBTS then I will try to remove it (I know it sounds easy, but I like to think im the kind of guy who at least tries to do something like that). But I have never ever, not in a synagoge, not in any other church, not with the mormons, not in India or in Buddhism, seen what I see in the JW's.
And maybe you guys are right, and maybe i'm wrong. Maybe the organization cant be changed. Maybe they say A and do B. But better to have tried and failed then to have never tried at all (or was that, better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all?). I have been wanting to be a JW's for years now, but my mother wouldnt allow it, and soon i'll be free. I read a thread from a boy, 15 years old, who really didn't believe in the JW's and didnt like going to the meetings and stuff, and all I could think of was... God, I would give so much to trade places with him. It's not only a gut feeling, its also what I read when I read my science lessons, what I hear when i listen to my professors, what I see when i looki at the current state of the world. It makes sense ;)
Good, Its late and I'm getting sentimental. I think i'll go tuck in now. Point was that I am not brainwashed, I am here listening to you, and I'm not looking for the truth. What I am trying to ask is... does anyone know of a better religion then the JW's, which give you both knowledge and love? If so I'd love to hear who, where and why! ;)
OldSoul

Delta: I will be 'defending' what you guys say and what I read here when i talk to the JW's.

I believe you are candidly honest and you mean to stick by this statement. If so, then I dare say you will not progress to baptism. Ask a relative to let you see the questions for baptism (not just the two for the day of, the ones in the Appendices of the "Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry" book). Read them, look up the Scriptures, and think about whether you can honestly answer them in a way that would get you baptized.
Delta: I don't believe in brainwashing.
Do you believe in Pavlovian conditioned responses? If you understand the principles of it, you will know it for what it is if you see the signs. Reward and punishment. The love displayed is usually entirely conditional and is offered and withdrawn as a means of producing the desired actions, shadow and some few others being exceptions to that general reality. In no time at all, a matter of months in some cases, they have people conditioned to figuratively salivate on command.
Delta: But I have never ever, not in a synagoge, not in any other church, not with the mormons, not in India or in Buddhism, seen what I see in the JW's.
If you mean the unity, I agree with you (see Pavlovian conditioned responses). It is not necessarily the same on the inside of the individual Witness as the picture displayed on the box.
As long as you go in with eyes open and you don't let anyone close them for you, you'll be fine. I've been in, awake, and trying to change things for 15 years. I doubt anyone will ever change the Organization from the bottom, but I sure wouldn't mind anyone giving the ol' college try!
More power to you, Delta. Fallback position will be ready and waiting, if needed.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
fairchild

As much as I am 'defending' the JW's here, I will be 'defending' what you guys say and what I read here when i talk to the JW's.

Oh oh, they will say that we are tools in the hands of Satan, being employed to turn people away from the truth. In my own defence, I have done the same thing as you are doing. If truth is impossible to find, I have searched for the next best thing as well, which indeed is knowledge. The initial knowledge (the one that floats on the surface), drew me to the JW organization, but then a deeper knowledge pulled me away from them. Don't get me wrong, I don't know it all!
NewLight2

"If theres something rotten in the WBTS then I will try to remove it (I know it sounds easy, but I like to think im the kind of guy who at least tries to do something like that)." ---Jaron

Jaron, Bill Bowen was an elder and when he found something 'rotten' within the WBTS he tried to change it too. But it got him disfellowshiped. Read about what he found rotten here:

http://www.silentlambs.org/

NewLight2
Sunspot

** Is there a serious religion which is better then JW's?
Hello and welcome, Jaron.
Yes, of course! There are many, and they don't demand that you be obedient to their everchanging rules and doctrines or you'll be disfellowshipped. They show the true Christian spirit of not being critical of other religions or judgmental of one another as JWs are.
**But besides all of that, is there something else worth considering besides JW's for someone who believes in God and the Bible?

Yes. I left the WTS after 30 years and I FOUND God, AND I developed a new appreciation for Jesus' teachings. Despite what the WTS says, just because one leaves the WTS does not make them anti-God or anti-bible.
**
What I am trying to ask is... does anyone know of a better religion then the JW's, which give you both knowledge and love? If so I'd love to hear who, where and why! ;)
Hello and welcome Delta.
Well.......I had been a JW for 30 years and had left. A family member had started attending a small AOG church a few miles up the road. I had never been to it.
When I was hospitalized a1 1/2 years ago, the pastor at this church came up and prayed for my recovery. I was so touched. He has called here and asked how things were going, and the members are always asking about how I'm coming along. I have never met them.
So "love" comes in all shapes and forms, and not just at the KH. It's human to show compassion and concern for others AND act on it. JWs don't have a corner on that market whatsoever.
Any religion that claims to be the ONLY one approved by God, you should stay clear of.
Any religion that tells you that you are viewed as "dead" in their eyes or God's, is one to stay clear of as well.
Remember THIS group of scriptures? Read them and think about this:
Who will seperate us from the love of the Christ? For I am convinced that neither death nor life
nor angels nor governments
nor things now here nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor *any other creation*
will be able to separate us from God's love that is in Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:3, 38-39
Seems to me that NOTHING can put a barrier between us and God's love unless WE decide that WE don't want to accept it any longer. No man or organization can tell us that God doesn't "still love" anyone!
Seeing as the WTS lies about something this big, they will certainly lie about lots of other things. And they DO.
Annie
jeanniebeanz

Welcome, Jaron.
You will find a wide variety of personalities and opinions here to enjoy. Take a look at some of the older threads as well as the new. They can be very enlightening.
Jean
Nosferatu

You all have some form of religion... is that form of religion the truth? If so I would most certainly like to know how ud know that for 100% sure.

I'll tell you EXACTLY what "truth" is. Truth is knowing yourself, knowing your limits, your emotions, your weaknesses, your strengths, etc etc. You are the only person who can be truthful to yourself. Others may be full of shit, but only you can know yourself 100%.
But knowledge isn't everything, because what is knowledge when you dont have love?
Knowledge is learned through life, love is learned by interacting with another person (or persons)
This is how I ended up with JW's, they are one of the few organizations that I know of that give you room for both.
If you call disfellowshipping (shunning) an act of love, there's something really wrong with you.

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