by AlmostAtheist 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I guess, it depends on which Jews you want to believe.
Well, I'm not out to believe any of them (or Christians, or Californians, or anybody else) I just want to know how the current Jews see the whole "Messiah" question and how they view Jesus.
People who make web sites tend to be the extreme people. I was trying to get the perspective of the "jew on the street", as it were.
Dave
I guess, it depends on which Jews you want to believe.
D,Dog that pretty much says it all.
AA
"jew on the street",
That doesn't help much, there are many different types. Most are probably agnostic today.
D Dog
DDog,
Romans 16:20 may allude to Genesis 3:15 but fails to be Messianic inasmuch as it is collective: "under your feet". In Galatians 4:4 any allusion to Genesis 3:15 is farfetched "IMHO" .
Whatever the case, there is no doubt in my mind that the NT uses a number of OT texts as "messianic prophecies". But whether those texts fit such a description in their original contexts is a quite different matter.
Nark
Whatever the case, there is no doubt in my mind that the NT uses a number of OT texts as "messianic prophecies". But whether those texts fit such a description in their original contexts is a quite different matter.
So what was the original context of Genesis 3:15
D Dog
In my study of Judaism I found that Isaiah 7:14 was explained as being about Isaiah himself, his wife is the young maiden and the child born is the child of Mr and Mrs Isaiah.
Some Jews today think that the Jews as a group are the Messiah. Some Hasidic Jews today think the late Rabbi Schneerson of Brooklyn, New York is the Messiah and will be resurrected from the dead.
The learned Rabbi Akiba of the second century AD thought that Bar Kochba leader of the second Jewish revolt against the Romans in 135 AD was the Messiah in the same sense that the Apostles thought Jesus might be the Messiah. Jesus and Bar Kochba were killed by the Romans. Rabbi Akiba and most of the Apostles were killed for faith in their respective Messiahs.
In the 1600's a Turkish Jew, whose name I have trouble spelling, proclaimed himself the Messiah and thousands of Jews followed him. He claimed that since he was the Messiah he could break all the laws of Mses and ate unkosher food, engaged in wife swapping and other un Jewsih behaviour and his followers did likewise. The Ottoman Sultan demanded this Messiah convert to Islam or die and Allah be praised he did. An extreme minority of the Jewish community still follow this guy and get together for holy orgies.
There is no Jewish Pope or faithful and discreet slave of the Jews. Being a good Jew a person has a lot of lattitude. As Rabbi Hillel said to a potential Jewish convert while standing on one foot (100 years before the birth of Jesus) "Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself, everything else is commentary."
Lets just say ,if you do the research Jesus didn't fulfill the tangible aspects of the Messiah. The virgin birth of a man-god precludes Jesus of being the Messiah from King David's line. Even Paul knew the problems of Jesus lineage and told his followers to skip it. Jesus didn't cause all the world to follow the one true G-d and follow his laws, either. He died before world peace was attained.I believe that Jesus early followers attempted to make sense of his death by studying their Bible and looking for scripture that could be used as proof texts in an attempt to look for Messianic fulfillment in Jesus. I do believe that Jesus had a vision or epiphany of sorts and he attempted to share his vision of a better way to worship G-d. Judaism continued to evolve over the centuries. Today we have the orthodox Jew who attemps to observe all 613 laws of G-d and then you have all the rest of the Jews. If we had access to all the written works known to 1st centurty followers of Jesus, I think we would have our many questions answered. Unfortunately, anything which contradicted the established church canon was destroyed.
Hope this helps.
Shalom,
Moshe
So what was the original context of Genesis 3:15
genesis 3:14 maybe? do you think that text is "messianic"? messy maybe, yes, but "messianic"?
most of the "prophecies" pointing to jesus are no prophecies at all.
DDog:
Genesis 2--3 can be described diversely as a primeval, etiological, mythical, theological story.
The end line of the story, as represented by the divine judgement, is not some prophetic or messianic future, but current reality as the storyteller perceived it (with little if any separation between what we would call natural, cultural, social and even mythical aspects of "reality"). In the Biblical literary genres this story is closer to "wisdom" than to "history" or "prophecy".
IOW: Genesis 2--3 tells us how things came to be what they are, which is just a narrative answer to the more abstract question why are things what they are?
Which things?
3:14 the legendary "wisdom", life-giving power of the legless, crawling serpent.
3:15 the relationship of mutual dread and aggression between the serpent and mankind
3:16 childbirth with the accompanying pain and subjection of woman to man.
3:17f the necessity of agricultural work in a comparatively hostile environment.
3:19 death.
3:21 the practice of clothing.
3:22ff: bottom line: man has stolen the gods' knowledge but won't get their immortality.
Didier:
Ooh, nice precis!
