I debated with my "devout" JW mom and her JW elders for 5 hours

booker-t

As most of you know by now I have told you that my mom has been a "devout" JW for over 40 years and I can't get her to budge. Well the last time we debated she left me totally confused and in a daze. I did some fast research and this past Sunday we had a free-for-all debate that lasted 5 hours. The good point of it was that we had the debate with her elders in back of the kingdom hall with all of the old books. I could not believe that my mom was willing to do this but she did. As I have mentioned in the past my mom would be an elder if she were a man. She is very knowlegeable in history as well as church history and very sharp on the old testaments. The first thing my mom threw in my face was where in the 120 year history have any JW leader or JW president stated that JW's are prophets? She argued that no apostate can show her where JW's have said "We are inspired prophets and we can predict the future without error". She pulled out some old Watchtowers from Russell and Rutherford's time showing me where Russell and Rutherford both said we are "not prophets" and our magazines are not "error-free" so my mom's argument sweeps all of the false prophecies under the carpet because both Russell and Rutherford claim they are not prophets. I pulled out the book The nation shall know that I am Jehovah and before I could turn to the page one of the elders said "before you get to the page where we once said that not a person but a small body of footstep followers known as JW's made up the prophet" the elder said that JW's never claimed to be prophets but acted as prophets in that they delivered a message of coming destruction from Jehovah the elder said there is a "big" difference in acting as a prophet and claiming to be a prophet. He gave me an analogy of a nurse who is trapped in a elevator with a pregnant woman about to give birth and a doctor is on the phone with the nurse giving her instructions on how to deliver the baby. Would it be wrong if afterwards the nurse told all of her friends that she acted as a doctor to deliver the baby? Or would it be wrong if the nurse later said she was a doctor? The elder asked me is there a difference here? I told him that is a good analogy. My mom also argued that JW's have never said "thus said the lord that 1975" the world is coming to an end and this is Jehovah's prophecy we are telling you". My mom feels that if JW's had said these are the words of Jehovah or Jesus that such and such is going to happen in (whatever year) then JW's would be false prophets according to Deut 18:20-22. She lumps it all together as "wrong expectations" because if a person never claims to be a prophet than they cannot be accused of being a false prophet. Corncerning the "generation of 1914" being alive when Armaggeddon comes my mom feels that just because JW's made an adjustment in teaching does not mean it is a wrong doctrine. She feels that they clarified some minor point and made it more clearer but the 1914 is still scriptural. She gave me the example of the Jews and circumcision. Many Jewish Christians had trouble with the circumcision doctrine but my mom said were they false teachers or did Jehovah still use them when they made the change in doctrine? This went on for hour after hour and finally I got up and told my mom I love her but she is too far gone and only Jehovah and Jesus can help her see the errors of the WTS and as I was leaving one of the elders said that I am the evil slave apostate and my mom is serving Jehovah and Jesus and she should cut me off completely and my mom told me that unless I come back to JW's she will have nothing more to do with me and I told her goodbye and I left. When I got home I felt like crap and just could not stop crying. Did I do the right thing?

Valis

you did the right thing for your sanity. You can go on living their lie, but laying down ultimatums to you like that just proves how right they think they are. It sucks having to deal with it, but at least you aren't the one living a lie.

Sincerely,

District Overbeer

MerryMagdalene

Sorry, booker-t,

You did your best. They have a lot invested in continuing to fool and trick themselves into believing they are right, but at least they're not fooling you.

I empathize with your pain and frustration and send you a big warm hug.

~Merry

Seeking Knowledge

It's only natural for a son to want to protect his mother. You did what you had to do. You did your best. You know what's real and what isn't.

((hug))

SK

Buster

Well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I can't stand that damnable witness doublespeak - 'acting as a prophet, without being a prophet' - are you kidding me? My dad, an excellent salesman, used to say, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brillinace, baffle 'em with bullsh!t." It sounds like they gave you quite the runaround.

Perhaps you let them get away with splitting hairs. I think I would have simply forced them to recognize that a prophet is someone that speaks for god. Any person or orgranization that predicts the future, bases those predictions on having been told so by God is claiming to be a prophet. And any such person or orgranization that gets those predictions wrong is a false prophet.

Sorry about losing your mother though.

Double Edge

I agree, they're either prophets or they're not.... they can't have it both ways by saying they're "acting" like prophets...what's up with that.

From the King James Bible in AMOS:

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Doesn't mention anything about those who are "acting" as prophets....

Also, the Doctor/Nurse analogy...doesn't wash. Main point of the story was someone assisting a woman giving birth... could be a doctor, nurse, fireman, cab driver... whatever ... Doctor/Schmocter... midwives "assisted" long before there were doctors. The point of the story should be did the person assist or didn't they? (Are they a prophet or aren't they?) my 2 cents

garybuss

I say there is never a good time to talk about Witnesses or religion to a believing Witness. I see nothing to be gained if it means risking rapport, even if that is fragile rapport. I believe I can't help Witness people, or any other people, by proving them wrong. I have tried it all and I am done with it.

What happened to me is . . . I expose the totalistic individual to information that shows they are wrong, they see that as an attack and they retaliate, I get pissed at them for retaliating and I resent them and want nothing more to do with them. Now I am pissed at them more than they hate me and the relationship is forever dead.

My best success is living a happy life without Witness people, remembering to make money so I can continue living a happy life without the Witness people. I just make an adjustment in my social contact list. Friends in . . . Witnesses out.

Double Edge

One more thing...

but acted as prophets in that they delivered a message of coming destruction from Jehovah

Well, there's a lot of religions that can make the same claim.....

frankiespeakin

Booker-t,

You did the best you could,,I think you did what I would do,,it's hard to deal with all that WT crap. I sure hope your mother reconsiders.

Goldminer

...and everybody got 5 hours of service time except you.....

I debated with my "devout" JW mom and her JW elders for 5 hours

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