"She argued that no apostate can show her where JW's have said "We are inspired prophets and we can predict the future without error.""
You do not have to predict the future to be a prophet
The following is from the JW's own Bible dictionary, "Insight On The Scriptures" under "Prophet"
"The Greek pro·phe´tes literally means ?a speaker out [Gr., pro, ?before? or ?in front of,? and phe·mi´, ?say?]? and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Tit 1:12.) Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.)"
This alone blows her argument completely out of the water.
Claiming that a teaching, any teaching, is the product of active Divine direction is a claim to the office of prophet regardless of whether it has anything to do with the future or not.
As Elsewhere has shown, that claim has been made many times.
I debated with my "devout" JW mom and her JW elders for 5 hours
by booker-t 49 Replies latest jw friends
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TD
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El blanko
I think you did the right thing. You have concerns and you attempted to address them.
Quiet unfairly, they had you in a small room up against the elders and your mother! Talk about inducing stress.
Maybe next time, have a few of your own buddies there to intimidate by numbers. Possibly a few buddies well versed in the societies history
Ahem - Christian Freedom / Ray Franz (our hero).
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Mary
The first thing my mom threw in my face was where in the 120 year history have any JW leader or JW president stated that JW's are prophets? She argued that no apostate can show her where JW's have said "We are inspired prophets and we can predict the future without error".
What a load of shit. As Elsewhere and others have pointed out, they most certainly have referred to themselves as "prophets" over the years. It's real convenient to make predictions about the future, screw it up and then tell everyone "we never really said we could predict anything with any kind of accuracy." It's kinda like Geoge Dubya telling everyone that there were WMD in Iraq and then it turns out that there weren't.
before I could turn to the page one of the elders said "before you get to the page where we once said that not a person but a small body of footstep followers known as JW's made up the prophet" the elder said that JW's never claimed to be prophets but acted as prophets in that they delivered a message of coming destruction from Jehovah the elder said there is a "big" difference in acting as a prophet and claiming to be a prophet.
Again, that is nothing but a load of shit. That's like me opening an accounting business, screwing up thousands of people's income tax, and then when I was arrested for tax evasion, saying to the IRS or a judge "I never claimed to be an accountant, but I acted as an accountant in that I worked out your income tax and there's a big difference between acting as an accountant and claiming to be an accountant." It would only be a question of whether I'd be thrown into prison or the insane asylum. I mean, do they really believe something so STUPID??!! As for his analogy of a nurse "acting" as a doctor, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Even if such a scenario happened, no nurse is going to tell the patient "I'm a doctor", screw up the delivery and then claim "I never claimed to be a doctor, but I acted as a doctor in that I tried delivering your baby, screwed it up and there's a big difference between acting as a doctor and claiming to be a doctor."
My mom also argued that JW's have never said "thus said the lord that 1975" the world is coming to an end and this is Jehovah's prophecy we are telling you".
There are countless publications in their literature that can prove her wrong. The 1966 & 1968 WT's both strongly indicate that they expected it to come in 1975. The 1974 Kingdom Ministry was thrilled that "reports are coming in that brothers and sisters have sold their homes and businesses and are planning to finish out the remaining months in this Old System of Things in the pioneer work." If this isn't a strong indication that they were expecting the End in 1975, then what exactly was it's purpose? If they weren't expecting it in '75, then why didn't they admonish the brothers and sisters for believing this very same thing?
She lumps it all together as "wrong expectations" because if a person never claims to be a prophet than they cannot be accused of being a false prophet.
As I've already mentioned, there are plenty of articles showing that they did in fact say that they were prophets. Ask your mother if any of the prophets in either the Old Testament or the New Testament ever got a prophecy wrong.
Corncerning the "generation of 1914" being alive when Armaggeddon comes my mom feels that just because JW's made an adjustment in teaching does not mean it is a wrong doctrine.
Oh lordy, this is just ridiculous. Either a doctrine is right or it's wrong---there's no inbetween. If this doctrine needed changing, then obviously it was a FALSE DOCTRINE for over 80 years and they disfellowshipped people for not believing in a false doctrine. Give her another example: If the Catholic Church decided to "adjust" the doctrine of the Trinity to where it now means that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not all equal, does that mean that they were teaching a false doctrine for the last 1500 years or was this only a minor "adjustment" in the doctrine?? I guarantee you, your mother would say "yes". Ask her where in the bible is the phrase or indication of something called "present truths"?? It ain't there because there's no such thing.
She gave me the example of the Jews and circumcision. Many Jewish Christians had trouble with the circumcision doctrine but my mom said were they false teachers or did Jehovah still use them when they made the change in doctrine?
You should have said "and was anyone of them disfellowshipped for not getting circumcised??? No, they weren't. It was left up to the individual's conscience---something that Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow when it comes to doctrine."
As I was leaving one of the elders said that I am the evil slave apostate
Yes, and isn't that exactly what the Pharisees accused Jesus of when he exposed their insane rules and regulations?
and my mom is serving Jehovah and Jesus and she should cut me off completely and my mom told me that unless I come back to JW's she will have nothing more to do with me and I told her goodbye and I left. When I got home I felt like crap and just could not stop crying. Did I do the right thing?
Hon, I feel really sorry that you went through that, but I don't think you went into battle as well prepared as what you could have been. You should have had all the research done, written down, quoted from their own doctrines before you met with them. Even though you've been accused of apostacy, what I would do now is this: write down all the points they made, and get the information and quotations from their own publications that will show them to be out and out liars. Compose a detailed letter to both your mother and these two elders outlining everything you've found. And since they're so fond of coming up with the most ridiculous illustrations like nurses acting as doctors, etc. just throw it right back at them with another illustration that shows how ridiculous their reasoning is. Feel free to use the "illustrations" I've presented here if you want. As for any quotes from their own literature, Blondie is especially good at coming up with this stuff.
You've got nothing to lose at this point and a detailed letter with proper quotations and illustrations can be effective as they can read it over and over again. Many of us here were fanatical Witnesses at one point and all it takes is one really good point that can get someone thinking.....
Good luck and God Bless.
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BONEZZ
booker-t...
Sorry for what you're going thru...so let me get this straight...
...if there are two people on an elevator and one of them is receiving insructions from another on the phone on how to stab the other person on the elevator...then is the one doing the stabbing really the murderer or is he just getting insrtuctions from the murderer on the outside and is really only acting as a murderer?
Hope you were wearin' your boots that day.
-BONEZZ
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franklin J
ahh!
why are your wasting your time? ....most important for you to go easy on yourself....
In their perspective; you will always be wrong---and they are always right.. These people really believe that they are "Jehovahs representatives"; delusional at best.
Just like the sunday morning TV evangalists; or Billy Grahm; Jerry Falwell or any other fundamentalist group, our old JW "friends" ( and , unfortunately, loved ones) are on a mission. You are either with them; or against them. NO IN BETWEEN.
Direct you energies to more positive pursuits; it does take time and effort to heal as you move away from them. An argument like they always give you; only sets you back emotianally. Unless of course you want to blast them to vent your anger. Some feel better after directing the anger where it belongs....then I guess it is constructive!
been there, done that, good luck, frank
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Elsewhere
*** Awake! 1986 June 8 p.9 "Would That All Were Prophets!" *** You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses.
*** w53 10/15 p. 623 ?The Watchtower??a Bible Study Aid ***
To properly study The Watchtower we must approach it with the right heart attitude. While we are commanded, ?Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is right,? let us not overlook the fact that we are also admonished, ?Do not treat prophesyings with contempt.? (1 Thess. 5:20, 21, NW) Having found, time and again, that The Watchtower adheres faithfully to God?s Word, we have no grounds for approaching a study of it [The Watchtower] with suspicion, but rather we should approach it with a sincere desire to understand what God has provided for us through its pages, ever ready to ?accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save [our] souls.??Jas. 1:21, NW.*** Watchtower 1943 July 1 pp. 202-203 ***
Nothing is interpreted but the interpretation comes from God and is then published.*** Watchtower 1957 June 15 p. 37 ***
It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.*** Watchtower 1960 July 15 p. 439 ***
"The 'slave' class has served as God's sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time." -
Mary
You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Somebody screwed up when they wrote this article!!......are they saying that ALL of Jehovah's Witnesses are prophets?? I thought for sure that it'd only be the Feckless and Indiscreet Slug Class who had the priviledge of not knowing a prophecy from their own ass.
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zen nudist
acting like a prophet.....
translation: we are letting you know we ARE lying... and because we are being honest with you about lying, you should trust what we say
(^_^)
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FreeWilly
Hey Booker-t,
Follow up by writing your mom a carefully researched letter on the prophet issue. You know, where they say: "these are gods dates not mans", "God touches their lips to pronounce glorious bs..." and other gems. Compare it with Scriptures (duet 20, Luke 21:8, etc)
This puts it on YOUR terms.
-F W
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GetBusyLiving
:Would it be wrong if afterwards the nurse told all of her friends that she acted as a doctor to deliver the baby? Or would it be wrong if the nurse later said she was a doctor? The elder asked me is there a difference here? I told him that is a good analogy.
I really wish you hadn't fallen for this pre-packaged crappy analogy dude. If you give them an inch they'll take a mile (ie. calling you the 'evil slave'). But really in the end, who cares? If they want to rationalize their lives away they are gonna do it anyways.. sad about your mom, but its her life.