APRIL 1, 1972 WATCHTOWER ARTICLE, THEY WILL KNOW THAT A PROPHET WAS IN THEIR MIDST, CLAIMED THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY WAS A PROPHET!
OUTASERVICE
I debated with my "devout" JW mom and her JW elders for 5 hours
by booker-t 49 Replies latest jw friends
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moshe
For me, I could see very early on that any debate with a JW that uses the Bible or their literature usually fails. I find that talking about " personal feelings" works best.( were you upset about 1975? did you skip college to pioneer- do you ever wish for the career you missed out on to pioneer in 1975?, etc) If I can get them to admit to being unhappy about anything in the Org., it's a start. As long as they deny being unhappy, then why bother? I agree with Gary- be happy, live happy, be successful and make new friends. Someday the arrogant self serving JW leadership will finally make a mistake and get thrown to the dogs.
shalom,
Moshe
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Poztate
The good point of it was that we had the debate with her elders in back of the kingdom hall with all of the old books
No that is the bad point. You were on their turf and outnumbered. They now know you are a nasty old poztate because you don't believe every thing that they say.
You are in a no win situation when you allow this to happen and I see in fact the conclusion was reached you are a poztate.
I feel sorry for your situation but nothing will change except "mom" will be encouraged by the elders to take a harder line with you as regards shunning.
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eljefe
I would have went for a fairer fight. 3 on 1 means that you have to defend the ideas of 3 other people as well as formulate your own logic. Didn't JW's teach you to go 2 by 2?
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jschwehm
How would you like being a nurse delivering a baby from a Doctor that takes as many missteps as the Society.
Nurse: What do I do?
Doctor: Well right now in during this time of present truth in a few minutes the stork will arrive and...
Doctor: Hold on..Sorry that was past truth...
etc.
Jeff S.
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Balsam
Hi Booker-T
I have found that just staying away from anything about the lies the WTS teaches, it seems JW's are so good with the doublespeak that it is hard to reason with them. They deny till their blue in the face they are prophets, yet they follow the FDS if they told them to drink poison koolaid.
My efforts go to the unreliablity of the bible it self, the changes the early church made in it and the rejection of early Christian writings called the Gnostic Gospels which are thought perhaps to be earliest writings of the Christians.
After all anything based on the bible is a false if the bible itself is undependable and not inspired. I don't know how you feel about the bible or if you have done any research on it. The discovery Channel on cable has some very good programs on the "Mysteries of the Bible" which shed light on the bibles lack of inspiration from God.
I've had some good success on getting them to re-examine the bible with other bibles, and outside material.
Balsam
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Poztate
How would you like being a nurse delivering a baby from a Doctor that takes as many missteps as the Society.
Nurse: What do I do?
Doctor: Well right now in during this time of present truth in a few minutes the stork will arrive and...
Doctor: Hold on..Sorry that was past truth...
With the WT...They want to put a diaper on the placenta and throw the baby out.
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indispair
My mother, like yours, could be an elder if she were a man. She is very well versed. I have argued with her many times on various subjects and have managed to stump her when the elders aren't present. I did not use any reading materials or even the bible. Just good old fashioned logic. On two points she got up to blow her nose and use the bathroom, I think to regroup her thougts and the third time she finally looked at me and said "That is a good question, I will have to look up some information or speak with the elders who might have more knowlege in this area and then I will get back to you. The discussion or question I asked her ? Where in the bible does it say we can not celebrate birthdays?
Answer number one - Shelley the only two birthdays mentioned in the bible resulted in beheadings or terrible events. I responded this was not true that when Jesus was born, on his date of birth, the heavens opened up the trumpets sounded and the angels rejoiced and celebrated. True it does not give a date, but none the less, the angels knew what day it was and celebrated.
Answer number two - it is idolatrous and the bible says God forbids idolatry. I asked how is celebrating a persons life idolatrous? My mother responded that it is worshiping that person and taking away the Glory of God. I reminded my mother that just two months earlier, not on my JW neices birthday (she is 6) but a day none the less, they had a "special" party for Zoe at Chucky Cheese with cake, ice cream, gifts and pizza. A lot of JW's love Zoe and came. Uh, gee, would this not be idolatrous by the way she described idolatry above.
Answer number three- You are only born once and pagan holidays are forbidden by God. My response, this is true but then why do JW's celebrate anniversaries. My mother replied - marriage was constituded by God. I responded, and birth was not? Then I further mentioned that while most holidays are of pagan origin, and the very definition of pagan is man made, then really it is wrong that Anniversary's be celbrated as the ring, and flowers and cake at a wedding or anniversary all hold pagan meanings.
She said she would get back with me once she could get some more info. I asked her if she could just use her mind, and logic and answer me now. She left.
The second thing we debated was war. Now I am writing my opinion so if you are Republican or a Bush fan you must understand that I do believe these men are puppets on strings and I don't even vote anymore but I still have my own opinions on the way the government is handling things so forgive me if I say anything that steps on anyone's toes because it was for a great cause-defusing my mother's brain washed mind.
My mother stated of couse "beat your swords into plowsheers." This is true. War is bad and nothing ever good comes from it except more death but like self defense, someone is going to lose but you still have to protect yourself. My mother replied "yes, but I would not go out and buy a gun. I replied, no but you will call a police officer who carries a gun to save you, so what he dies for helping you and you live conscious free because you did not do the shooting. Such is war. If we were really fighting Bin Ladin in Afghanistan and it was really for him and the events on 9/11 would we then be justified in doing what we could to defend ourselves and keep ourselves safe? Even God waged wars and helped certain peoples to win wars. My mother replied she would just hit the intruder over the head with a chair or something. I replied, you could still kill them and I could come in with my gun and shoot them in the leg and they could still live. She then got angry at me and said I was picking apart what the point was and excused herself to the bathroom.
It seems to me if you are interpreting the bible you are picking apart what God says in a way. He just meant for you to read his word, take his teachings (which is what discipline is) and try to apply them to our imperfect lives as diligently as we could and love him and give him glory. I don't know why disfellowshipping is beneficial then, because you are cutting people off from God's love when you do this and you certainly can't get better without God according to their teachings.
This brings me to a new question. My step father is on reproof right now for cheating and going to girly bars. He use to be an elder. He is also divorcing my mother right now without scriptural ground. He came by the other day and asked if the elders have ever came back by to make a shepherding call as they are supposed to do that with disfellowshipped people. Is this true? I can't wait to point out how wrong they handled my situation. I also wonder if I can get them to understand that my baptism should be a "do over" as I was only 14, and can only be as sincere as a lost 14 year old can be with one believing parent and one non beliving parent.
Thanks,
Indispair
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Elsewhere
"before you get to the page where we once said that not a person but a small body of footstep followers known as JW's made up the prophet" the elder said that JW's never claimed to be prophets but acted as prophets in that they delivered a message of coming destruction from Jehovah the elder said there is a "big" difference in acting as a prophet and claiming to be a prophet. He gave me an analogy of a nurse who is trapped in a elevator with a pregnant woman about to give birth and a doctor is on the phone with the nurse giving her instructions on how to deliver the baby. Would it be wrong if afterwards the nurse told all of her friends that she acted as a doctor to deliver the baby? Or would it be wrong if the nurse later said she was a doctor? The elder asked me is there a difference here? I told him that is a good analogy.
You fell for a classic bate and switch. They split the hair and you agreed that black was white.
I apologize, I don't mean to be harsh... I'm just trying to be straight with you. When you had them over a barrel like you did by pointing out the prophet thing, you should have held them over the fire and not given them an inch.
The WTS claims to speak for Jehovah and to be a prophet of Jehovah. [Period]
*** w79 9/1 p. 29 The Royal ?Shepherd? of Bible Prophecy ***
Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name??True, the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, ?This is what Jehovah has said.?*** w79 11/1 p. 25 Divine Judgment Against the False Prophets of Christendom ***
Whom, then, did Jehovah send and who are the ones that speak in his name, Christendom?s clergy who prophesy oppositely, or the Jeremiah class of today? Future events will identify the truthtellers.*** w56 8/1 p. 463 Jehovah?s Message Against Gog of Magog ***
As Ezekiel was merely the spokesman used by God, so also are those today who are privileged to speak in the name of Jehovah as his message-bearing witnesses.*** kj chap. 4 p. 66 Commissioned to Speak in the Divine Name ***
24 Why, though, are all these facts of history brought to our attention? It is to show the fulfillment of prophecy. Jehovah has found and commissioned his modern-day ?Ezekiel.? It is a composite Ezekiel. It is composed of those dedicated, baptized proclaimers of God?s kingdom, who have been anointed with His spirit for their work. (Isaiah 61:1-3) It is manifest that in the year 1919 the invisible heavenly organization of Jehovah, like the celestial chariot seen in Ezekiel?s vision, rolled up and stopped, not before Christendom?s advocates of the League of Nations, but before the anointed proclaimers of the heavenly kingdom of God in the hands of Jesus Christ. From atop this celestial chariotlike organization Jehovah commissioned this dedicated, baptized, anointed class of servants to speak to all the nations in His name. Thus, like Ezekiel, they became Jehovah?s witnesses.*** w55 5/15 p. 305 Jehovah?s Channel of Communication ***
For supernatural communications that reach the earth the agent is referred to Biblically as a prophet if he is a male servant of God or a prophetess if a woman. The prophet, in turn, speaks out the communication as God?s spokesman on earth. He publishes it to the many whom God intends to hear it if other than a single person is being specifically addressed. The prophet then becomes the immediate earthly channel through which the waters of lifegiving truth are conveyed to earth?s thirsting residents. Thus Jehovah?s earthly channel of communication is identified. The earthly channel is either a prophet or a collective prophetlike organization.*** w56 8/1 p. 467 Delivering Satan?s Death Notice ***
AS THE previous article stated, Jehovah?s witnesses, of all people, are the ones commissioned by God to deliver his special message just prior to this world?s end. The message is one of doom directed against Gog of Magog, that is, Satan the Devil, and against his allies. And there are very good reasons why Jehovah God in these ?last days? passed over all others and chose what at the time was a small and obscure group of people to speak in his name and by his authority as his witnesses. Whom else can God trust to speak for him?*** w64 9/15 p. 574 Experiencing Jehovah?s Love ***
?In contrast to the attitude of these elective elders was that of an elderly couple with whom I stayed on the outskirts of . The brother went down to get the mail before breakfast, and when we had breakfast he said, ?Brother Riemer, I got a new Watchtower this morning, and do you know the first thing that Ma and I do when we get that Tower? We kneel down before we take the wrapper off and ask Jehovah to make us worthy to see what the message is that Jehovah has for us. Now, before we take the wrapper off, will you kneel down and pray with us?? How different that elective elder was from this humble couple who appreciated Jehovah?s organization!?*** w58 2/1 p. 79 Cultivate a Good Mental Disposition ***
We must always remember that we learn the truth from Jehovah?s channel of communication, the ?faithful and discreet slave? class. (Matt. 24:45-47) We receive of his spirit by our continued association with his channel. -
DazedAndConfused
I truly empathise with what happened to you. I truly hope that you can come to grips with the unfairness of this cult.
I also have to agree with others who mentioned the nurse/doctor analagy. Having been in the nursing career at one time I know for a fact that the only way a sane nurse would claim to be a doctor, as in this analagy, would be "tongue in cheek." As for a nurse claiming to be a doctor...again any sane nurse would not, could not (sounds like Dr. Suess, lol) do that as it is against the law and the nurse could lose his/her license for good.