Gods and the Trinity

by the_classicist 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    One of the claims against the Trinity that the WTBTS makes is that "[s]ince the Bible calls humans, angels, even Satan, "gods," or powerful ones, the superior Jesus in heaven can properly be called "a god." (Should You Believe in the Trinity? 29).

    In the Old Testament, the Hebrew employs elohim to signify what the WT says above. But it is interesting to note that Psalm 82 (81 in the Septuagint, and I will be using Septuagint numbering from now on), in which the judges of Israel are called "gods," is a satire. "God hath stood in the congregation of gods; and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods. How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked?" (Psalm 81: 1-2, Douay Rheims). God comes to judge the judges, who set themselves up as gods by preverting the divine mission of judgement (at least this is my interpretation).

    The New Testament is different from the Old Testament in that it has separate words to differentiate a god and an angel. Angel is signified by ho aggelos; in Classical Greek this meant "messenger," but clearly in the Hellenistic Christian usage it takes on a supernatural meaning as well. This is why it says at Luke 1:26 the "angel of the Lord," rather than "a god of the Lord." Just because the Bible refers to other beings as gods or god, it does not follow that would necessarily mean that the God of John 1:1 is simply "a god." However, I will not debate the grammar of John 1:1 because I do not know anything about Hellenistic grammar and I highly doubt that the writers of the Watchtower publications knew much either.

    The next text that the Watchtower tries to disprove as proving the divinity of Christ is John 20:28. "Some scholars have suggested that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment, spoken to Jesus but directed to God." (Should You Believe in the Trinity? 29). This is what the text is transliterated into English: "... kai (conj.) eipen (3rd person aorist) auto (masc. sing. dat.) ho kurios (nom. masc. sing.) mou (unemphatic pronoun; sing., gen.) kai (conj.) ho theos (nom., masc., sing.) mou (unemphatic pronoun; sing., gen.). Which translates to (The Classicist's translation): "... and he said to him (indirect object; referring to Jesus, if he was referring to God it would be "to theo") the Lord of me and the God of me." Clearly from the Greek, the grammar makes clear that Thomas is calling Jesus his Lord and his God. The Watchtower claims that it was "spoken to Jesus but directed to God," but there is NO reason in the text to believe to this. The interpretation that the WT makes has no support from the majority of scholars, modern or ancient; it would appear that the Watchtower does as the Pharisees did: "And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition." (Mark 7: 9).

    Interesting is what the WT says a little down p. 29, "Even through Jesus was already resurrected as a mighty spirit, Jehovah was still his God." Although this has nothing to do with the Trinity, let's examine what the Bible says (I feel like I'm writing the Watchtower ). See 1 Corinthians 15:12-17. Also see John 2:18-22, especially John 2:21, "But he was talking about the temple of his body" (NWT).

    The next topic I will consider is the divinity of the Holy Spirit. There are various "proof texts," as the WT may call it, that show that the Holy Spirit is God and a person, not an "active force": Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-26, 1 Cor. 2:10-11. See also Matt. 12:31-32. And there are more... There are numerous logic errors that the WT makes on their section on the Holy Spirit that would take up pages to answer.

    On p.7, the WT "quotest" ante-Nicene Church Fathers to show that they did not believe in God or the Trinity. Let's see what these people really believed:

    Justin Martyr: "[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

    Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning?for he was in God?and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

    "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).

    Tertullian: "The Father makes him equal to himself, and the Son, by proceeding from him, was made the first-begotten, since he was begotten before all things, and the only-begotten, because he alone was begotten of God, in a manner peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, to which even the Father himself gives witness: ?My heart has poured forth my finest Word? [Ps. 45:1?2]" (Against Praxeas 7:1 [A.D. 216]).

    "That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

    Hippolytus: "Only [God?s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

    "The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

    Origen: "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

    "No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ?when? and ?never? are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages" (ibid.).

    "For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

    "Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

    So what do you think? Please feel free to correct any logic errors.

    The Classicist

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    While the WT is right in saying that the 4th-century Trinity doctrine as such is not taught in the NT, it ignores the continuous line of tradition which runs from the NT to the Nicene creed, as you pointed out very well. But I would add that this line is just one among many, so that trinitarians and anti-trinitarians alike can find (equally anachronistic) arguments in the NT.

    A few details:

    - to me Psalm 82/1 comes out from a polytheistic context (the assembly of the gods).

    - 2 Corinthians 4:4 and John 10:34ff are interesting exceptions to the monotheistic use of theos.

    - in John 20:28 an address to God could be in the nominative (as a substitution for the vocative in koinè), but you are right that this would be a desperate explanation in this context.

    - generally speaking, I think the NT offers much better arguments for the divinity of the Son than for an independent personality of the Holy Spirit. And the fact that the Spirit can be indifferently called the Father's of the Son's doesn't help much (from the Trinitarian perspective, I mean).

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Trinity broshure is as bad as the Creation book in its misuse and selective quoting of sources. Its release back in 1989 was a major factor in showing me the "truth about the truth," as it demonstrated how brazenly the Society would distort the facts.

    I would just add that the the OT is henotheistic in parts (assuming the existence of other gods), and the NT does not assume one single christology but represents both "low" Christology (such as in Mark) and "high" Christology (such as in John, Colossians, etc.), and much of the christological debate in the second and third centuries was a working out of data in the NT and tradition into a consistent theology (e.g. harmonizing the idea of hypostatic union with kenosis).

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    while a JW, I came across trinitarians who tossed me for a loop and made me realize that I did not have

    enough non-JW understanding of the trinity... so I got a note book and I found over 120 different new test. verses which mention

    both father and son and noted their relationship, I highly recommend anyone interested in this debate to do so.

    what I found re-inforced my JW beliefs rather than harmed them, and now, 15 years free of both christianity and the BORG, I still

    would say, academically that the bible rejects the main tenants of the orthodox version of the trinity which seem to me to be made out of non-jewish christians confusing their pagan world view with jewish concepts

    I find the trinity is made only by people OUTSIDE the bible picking pieces which are not IN context and assembling these fragments

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Leolaia,

    Just a detail: I wonder if Mark represents a truly "low christology" or rather the combination of a "high christology" with a "low Jesuslogy" (!), i.e. a Pauline-like "Son of God" empowering the simple man Jesus at baptism and leaving him on the cross...

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I find the trinity is made only by people OUTSIDE the bible picking pieces which are not IN context and assembling these fragments

    The same of course would be true of Arianism and the christology of Jehovah's Witnesses, which identifies Jesus with Michael the Archangel.

    Narkissos...Good point, adoptionism makes things a little more complicated (we don't have a truly "low christology" as in some Ebionite writings about Jesus as the True Prophet), tho verses such as Mark 10:17 and those define Jesus' role as primarily that of the Suffering Servant and the less theological use of kurios suggest that Mark is still lower than Paul and John. That is, the extent of the divinity of the Son of Man is less clear in Mark than in Paul, at least from my reading...Comparing Mark with Matthew and Luke is also instructive in how the christology was modified...

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Far too much is being made out of the word God by many. Grammar is often used as an argument to explain how it should be rendered but more often than not context is the real issue. In scripture the word God identifies no one in and of itself and is properly used of others be they human or no-human. Does this mean that the scriptures recognize more that one God in such cases? Yes, but not more than one Supreme Being. You see the term God is not always used in a way that means supreme being so calling such human or non-humans Gods does not conflict with the truth that there is but one God [supreme being] that we worship as such.

    Jesus is our God be virtue of the fact that He actually created us and the world of mankind to which He came but Jesus is not our Supreme Being or our YHWH. Thus Jesus is not God alongside the God that Jesus was with as the Word or Logos. John was not teaching equality but showing presence, access and a commission from such a God at this beginning of the human race. The Logos is only God to the humanity He produced. God when so used simply designates a higher power or heaven over man. It is a stretch of the imagination to say we are actually discussing two Gods in the same context as the Supreme Being. Words have multiple meanings and picking the wrong one is what confuses most.

    Joseph

  • adelmaal
    adelmaal

    I am so not versed in Greek or Hebrew, I'm not sure whether I believe Jesus is Michael and I don't know whether or not Proverbs is describing wisdom personified in Jesus. I have lots of researching to do... But...

    I would have to agree with Zen Nudist and say that when I read through the Bible and take what I can from it I believe it reinforces a personal relationship between Jesus and God, which in my mind separates the two. I can go with John 1:1 saying "The Word Was God" because I do believe Jesus has been placed in a position of authority by his Father. He acts as God in that position and deserves all the dignity that comes with it. I do not believe they are one and the same though, which I don't think takes away from Jesus or God.

    JosephMalik: I love the point you made about Jesus being our God in a sense that he created us. So true! Mighty but not Almighty.

    As for the Holy Spirit. Got me

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I would have to agree with Zen Nudist and say that when I read through the Bible and take what I can from it I believe it reinforces a personal relationship between Jesus and God, which in my mind separates the two.

    Bear in mind that the Trinity claims as well that the Son and the Father are two separate persons in a relationship with each other, distinguished from each other tho unified.... It is frequently misunderstood as claiming otherwise.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    Bear in mind that the Trinity claims as well that the Son and the Father are two separate persons in a relationship with each other, distinguished from each other tho unified.... It is frequently misunderstood as claiming otherwise.

    trinitarian, however often overlook a very important element in the bible

    word pictures, visions, if you will... and no trinitarian I have ever run into has bothered to explain them...

    there are three main ones I can point to...

    Daniel which shows ONE being, the ancient of days and ANOTHER who is NOT shown to be God in any way shape or form, but is given great authority by the ONE being who is obviously God.

    another is the vision of Stephen as he is dying...he says he looks into heaven and sees JESUS with GOD, at GOD's right hand... to Stephen's mind and description, we detect no confusion as to any sort of trinity, but clearly as in Daniel, ONE who is GOD alone and another who is Jesus, and like daniel, no trace of any holy spirit as a 3rd person.

    finally the Revelation of John

    here we see ONE who is seated upon the THRONE and called THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and there is no mistaking who this represents, and another, called the LAMB, the LION of JUDHA and there is again no mistaking who this ONE is...and again NO person representing any holy spirit...and infact the holy spirit is mentioned as not one but seven bowls of fire, seven eyes, seven stars, seven horns, etc.... clearly there is NO individual mentioned nor indicated, but a definite connection to the seven angels who roved the earth as God's eyes in the OT.

    the consistancy is hard to ignore for me... there is NOT ONE vision in the hebrew nor greek bible which contradicts this simple and traditionally jewish view of GOD and his messiah.

    ----

    that the vast majoriity of christians overlook and ignore this is mind boggling to me

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