WATCHTOWER AND TOBACCO INDUSTRY???

by chuckyy 97 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Voyager

  Oroborus21:

  Once again you speak with (NO) documentation! Your opinions and assumptions are useless! We want to see your documentation! Prove what you say is true with something in black and white!

  Provide us a letter from the Watchtower Society denying that they have never taken donations from Phillip Morris! You are wasting your time until you present us with some documentation! Proof!

  We will be waiting for that letter from the Watchtower Society that you can scan for us here, and until you do, then your words are just nothing but hot air!

  Prove it!

  Thanks!
• 

  Taylor S.

  And another thing ...

  Maybe its silly ... or even presumptious of me to expect an Org that touts itself as 'all-knowing' to actually know something.

  tS
• 

  Voyager

  No your not silly Taylor. Many of us feel the very same way that you do.

  Oroborus21 has still shown us (no) evidence or documentation. So here is some more for Oro, from the Watchtower's own words:

  **********************************************************************************************************

  Beneficiary:

  Watchtower/1986/Dec/1st/page-30/

  ·

  INSURANCE: The Watch Tower Society may be named as the beneficiary of a life-insurance policy. Bank savings accounts can also be placed in trust for the Society. In either case, the Society should be informed.

  ·

  WILLS: Property or money may be bequeathed to the Watch Tower Society by means of a legally executed will. A copy should be sent to the Society.

  ***********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1987/Dec/1st/page-30/

  · INSURANCE: The Watch Tower Society may be named as the beneficiary of a life-insurance policy or in a retirement/pension plan. The Society should be informed of any such arrangements.

  · TRUSTS: Bank savings accounts can be placed in trust for the Society. If this is done, please inform the Society. Stocks, bonds, and property can also be donated under an arrangement to benefit the donor during his or her lifetime. This method eliminates the expense and uncertainties of probate of will, while ensuring that the Society receives the property in the event of death.

  **********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1988/Dec/1st/page-26/

  INSURANCE: The Watch Tower Society may be named as the beneficiary of a life-insurance policy or in a retirement/pension plan. The Society should be informed of any such arrangements.

  · TRUSTS: Bank savings accounts can be placed in trust for the Society. If this is done, please inform the Society. Stocks, bonds, and property can also be donated under an arrangement to benefit the donor during his or her lifetime. This method eliminates the expense and uncertainties of probate of will, while ensuring that the Society receives the property in the event of death.

  **********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1989/Dec/1st/page-26/

  · INSURANCE: The Watch Tower Society may be named as the beneficiary of a life-insurance policy or in a retirement/pension plan. The Society should be informed of any such arrangements.

  · TRUSTS: Bank savings accounts can be placed in trust for the Society. If this is done, please inform the Society. Stocks, bonds, and property can also be donated under an arrangement to benefit the donor during his or her lifetime. This method eliminates the expense and uncertainties of probate of will, while ensuring that the Society receives the property in the event of death.

  ********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1990/Dec/1st/page-23/

  · INSURANCE: The Watch Tower Society may be named as the beneficiary of a life-insurance policy or in a retirement/pension plan. The Society should be informed of any such arrangements.

  · TRUSTS: Bank savings accounts can be placed in trust for the Society. If this is done, please inform the Society. Stocks, bonds, and property can also be donated under an arrangement to benefit the donor during his or her lifetime. This method eliminates the expense and uncertainties of probate of will, while ensuring that the Society receives the property in the event of death.

  **********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1985/Dec/1st/page-22/

  Oftentimes, though, individuals prefer to let the branch office determine how the money will be spent, since those brothers know which need is the most pressing. One contributor wrote: "Please find enclosed check for the Society to use as they see fit in furthering the preaching work. We?re very happy to see the fine increase due to the efforts of all of Jehovah?s people with Jehovah?s blessing on the work."

  ********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1991/Dec/1st/page-29/

  · WILLS AND TRUSTS: Property or money may be bequeathed to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania by means of a legally executed will, or the Society may be named as a beneficiary of a trust agreement. A trust benefiting a religious organization may provide certain tax advantages. A copy of the will or trust agreement should be sent to the Society.

  ********************************************************************

  Watchtower/1992/Dec/1st/page-27/

  WILLS AND TRUSTS: Property or money may be bequeathed to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania by means of a legally executed will, or the Society may be named as a beneficiary of a trust agreement. A trust benefiting a religious organization may provide certain tax advantages. A copy of the will or trust agreement should be sent to the Society.

  *******************************************************************

  Thanks!
• 

  hopelesslystained

  The point here for me is, the WT requires it's followers to nit pic into every detail of their lives and to report any little thing in their fellow believers lives. We all had to answer to any possible thing that just might be viewed as a stumbling block to others. Should headquarters be imune to the same treatment they so lovingly dish out?
• 

  Voyager

  hopelesslystained:

  I appresiate your comments because you make a lot of sense in your knowledge of the Watchtower. They expect perfection from their members in all affais that are made, and yet they themselves are liars and hypocrites.

  I can see that your not a person who is going to be fooled by those who try to ignore the facts and continue to see things through the Watchtower's tinted sun-glasses.

  There have been many who have come to this forum who took sides with the Watchtower, only to be shocked at a later date, when they found out that the Watchtower admitted to some of these acts of hypocrisy.

  Many who refused to believe the Watchtower's relationship with the United Nations, were shocked later to see the word (register) in the Watchtower's own letter, indicating that there was certainly a lot more involved than trying to get a library card.

  Thank you for your insight!
• 

  Oroborus21

  Voyager:

  It is clear that you want to blindly persist even in the face of the clear facts as I have pointed them out to you.

  First, the quotes that you provide (that I am fully aware of) all provide that the Society be informed of such beneficiary arrangements. HOWEVER WHAT YOU APPARENTLY FAIL TO APPRECIATE OR SIMPLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT the trust agreement (no trust agreement) gets into the nitty-gritty of the HOLDINGS itself other than perhaps the initial outlay. Having recently created one for a client of mine and being an attorney I happen to be speaking from some position of authority on this matter. If you view these as mere opinion, or "words" that is fine. But understand that my "words" have weight behind them and further it implies that in no case can anyone ever TRY TO REASON WITH YOU unless you see some tangible evidence. That denies a whole body of argument, pursuasion and logical reasoning and makes you a person that can never be reasoned with.

  Nevertheless, I will repeat it again for anyone who is reasonable out there. The documents provided DO NOT SHOW THAT PHILLIP MORRIS DONATED ANY MONEY TO THE SOCIETY period.

  Now you are asking me to provide "documentation" to prove a negative: "That the Society hasn't received money from PHillip Morris" UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, you are "begging the question" that is you are assuming that it has been established that the Society HAS received money from Phillip Morris. THAT ASSUMPTION IS INVALID.

  FIRST ONE MUST PROVE THAT THE SOCIETY DID RECEIVE MONEY FROM PHILLIP MORRIS. That HAS NOT been proven and the documentation that is the subject and referenced in this thread DOES NOT do so.

  Maybe there are a lot of less sophisticated people here that don't understand that, that read only the headline and believe it to be so but that is their misfortune.

  -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

  PS: To whoever responded to my statement about what the Society might do. Yes, I agree that the Society SHOULD do what it can to a reasonable extent to ensure that donations, especially of a significant size, are not objectionable. It should do this for the sake of the consciences of the Christian brotherhood and because it holds itself out as the only "divine channel" and religion/organization being used by God today. It should do many many things and I for one, am certainly not a "defender" of the organization when it is in the wrong as I view it.

  But what is under discussion is not what the Society OUGHT to do but rather whether it presently has some connection to a Tobacco Company.

  Copies of a Form 990 and a schedule of investments were posted at the top of this forum PURPORTING TO SHOW JUST SUCH A CONNECTION. These documents are clearly for a Trust set up by a certain Mr. Riley 'FOR THE BENEFIT OF" the Society. Even though the Society says to persons to inform it of testamentary and trust arrangements for its benefit, it is possible that they were not informed or provided a copy of the trust as they have requested. But even assuming that they were provided a copy of the trust initially. The trust documents do not contain the kind of detail or even the same detail as the Form 990 and schedule of investments. More importantly, even if the Society as beneficiary did in some way have knowledge of the underlying investment holding, as a mere charitable beneficiary it has NO MANAGEMENT CONTROL over the trust holdings. It's only options are to accept or reject the money. Evidently from the 990, the Society accepted the money BUT AGAIN THIS DOES NOT PROVE THAT THE SOCIETY HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNDERLYING TRUST HOLDINGS AND FURTHER EVEN IF THEY DID KNOW THEY HAVE NO CONROL OVER IT.

  (these are the only assumptions contained in this post) I can only assume from the above that the Society, if it does know that the trust contains holdings in Phillip Morris, it must be taking the position that it is up to the individual's concience, (Mr. Riley or the Trustee), as to whether stock may be held in PHillip Morris. AS I pointed out before, PM owns Nabisco and other non-tobacco related companies so it may be that Mr. Riley (assuming that he is or was a Jehovah's Witness - he may not be at all for all that we know) has reasoned that it is ok to hold such stock. While, I myself may not agree with that reasoning it is arguable.

  -Eduardo
• 

  Voyager

  Oroborus21:

  What is clear, is that once again you speak with (NO) documentation! What part of the word (documentation) don't you understand?

  We will be expecting that Watchtower letter as soon as you get it!

  Thanks!
• 

  Taylor S.

  precisely hopeless ...

  i can't count the times i've been told not to do something ... something so simple as seeing a certain movie, because, though it was exactly wrong, it just might stumble someone. the 'Omen' was big way back when. of course it was clearly demonized ... but my mom took me to see it anyway.

  long story short, movie scared the crap outta me ... she made me promise not to tell anyone because it might stumble folks.

  decades later ... i'm just getting around to breaking that promise. but of course now, stumbling folks ain't such a bad idea.
• 

  hopelesslystained

  Evidently from the 990, the Society accepted the money BUT AGAIN THIS DOES NOT PROVE THAT THE SOCIETY HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNDERLYING TRUST HOLDINGS AND FURTHER EVEN IF THEY DID KNOW THEY HAVE NO CONROL OVER IT.

  They have complete control over whether or not they accept the money. It appears they are accepting money from a company which is commonly known as a tobacco company to the average individual. Now, try to say no one could be stumbled by their doing that. How would your agrument stand up to a commitee ready to disfellowship you for say, selling tobacco products in your store, after all, you have no control over your patrons decision to purchase them. Besides you own a franchised store and they are in charge of what is stocked in their franchises. What would be required of you to remain in good standing? What's more important, the money or the possibility someone will be stumbled by your selling tobacco products? You would be held responsible for researching such things before purchasing your franchise and accepting tobacco in your store, not to have done so would mark you as a "weak brother".

  It's a matter of consciece you say? Well clearly your conscience needs to be trained better before you can continue to associated as a JW.

  Now you tell me just how unreal the above scenario is.
• 

  Voyager

  Taylor:

  I know exactly what you mean Taylor. I can't tell you how many times I have see Jehovah's Witness (some I knew), standing in a movie line so eager to see (restricted) movies, and then turn right around and get in their cars to go out in service to (preach) to others about how (they) should become a Christian!

  Hypocrites!

  Thanks Taylor!