Quotes by Thiele concerning Watchtower Chronology

by VM44 71 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  VM44

  Does anyone know where is is documented that Thiele made the following quotes? --VM44

  As Bible scholar E. R. Thiele said about a Watchtower article on chronology, "It reminds me of the way an unscrupulous lawyer would deal with facts in order to support a case he knows not to be sound."

  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6040/kc.htm

  Then Bible scholar E. R. Thiele is quoted in support, but this misrepresents Thiele's position. Edwin R. Thiele wrote the book Aid refers to, The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings. In response to an inquiry of his opinion on the February 1, 1969 Watchtower's use of this quotation, Thiele said:

  .... it is misleading and unscrupulous. It is misleading in that it would give an entirely different impression concerning this important canon of Ptolemy than I hold. It is unscrupulous, because a procedure of this type is not honest.

  If the writer of this article had been honest -- or informed -- he would have known that I use Ptolemy's Canon in an entirely different way than he would have it used.

  I have the utmost respect for the Canon, and find myself almost standing in awe of its detailed historical accuracy. The man who wrote it must have had at his finger tips an amazing amount of detail concerning early near Eastern history, and an astonishing amount of astronomical information fitting in at point after point with specific years of the kings. It is accurate and reliable all along the line. Astronomy is one thing upon which we can depend with complete confidence. And when the eclipses of the Canon are so fully in harmony with the years of the kings, we can be certain that the chronology involved is sound. The Canon is right and Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.

  What would I say about the article in general? I would say that such a writer and reader has no business writing about such a subject. He does not know the facts, or if he does, he does not use them in an honest manner. It reminds me of the way an unscrupulous lawyer would deal with facts in order to support a case he knows not to be sound.

  Let us be charitable with the man and say that in his reading he does not read as an informed scholar should. In other words, let us accuse him rather of ignorance than dishonesty.

  So it is clear that The Watchtower and Aid misrepresented the views of a bible scholar to support the Society's chronology. The Aid book and the 1969 Watchtower say pretty much the same thing from this point on.

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/gentile6.htm

  AlanF, I want your references!

  --VM44
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  VM44

  "It reminds me of the way an unscrupulous lawyer would deal with facts in order to support a case he knows not to be sound."

  Have people noticed that many times the Watchtower uses "legal" terminology in some writings? For instance, I was looking up a Watchtower article from 1952 on the WT-Library CD, and notices that twice the article used the phrase "the physical evidence shows..." Who talks about "physical evidence" unless they are in a court of law?

  There are other examples also, Rutherford wrote articles in which he liked to pretend he was writing some great legal document, using phrases like "to wit" for instance (the "nitwit!")

  Can people think of other examples of their using "legalistic" sounding terminology in their writings?

  --VM44
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  Quotes

  VM44,

  I can't think of anything at this moment, but in general I agree with you: WT lit is very "legalistically" worded: convenant this, and propitiatory that (try using that word in any casual conversation), "we can reasonably conclue that..." (sounds like a legal pleading conclusion). I suspect that this is due, in large part, to Rutherford's influence.

  It is also interesting to note: the size and importance of the legal department at WT. Now, I agree that any large corporation will have a legal department; but I think the relative size of WT legal, especially when compared with other "professional" departments (doctors, nurses, dentists, engineering), is very telling.

  For the JW lurkers: If you've ever been on a bethel tour, did you notice how large and impressive is both the legal dept. and the law library? Ask youself why they don't even bother to show you the engineering department and the engineering library. Do they even have an eng. dept or an eng. library? Is it so small that there is no point in making it part of the tour? Now ask yourself: why does a printing company/religious charity need a law dept. bigger than it's engineering dept.????

  It just smells bad.

  ~Quotes, of the "holding my nose" class
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  willyloman

  Agreed. Anytime you read history and the author is spouting off about the "typical" and the "antitypical" fulfillment of one event or another, you know you're up to your knees in bovine manure.
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  iiz2cool

  Ask youself why they don't even bother to show you the engineering department and the engineering library.

  Considering all the international construction projects, an engineering library would not be unreasonable, but you don't see one there. The only place I've ever seen a legal library larger than the one in Bethel is the library where I work - the Ontario Legislature.

  Walter
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  AlanF

  VM44, the reference may be from the 1972 book Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation by Edmund Gruss. I'll look it up later for you.

  As a side note, I compiled that website material on the Gentile times from a variety of sources, especially the 1985 edition of The Gentile Times Reconsidered. From about 1992 through 1998, until GTR 3rd edition came out, this was out of print, and I wanted to use only secular sources, since I figured that the JWs who might read it would consider Jonsson's and Gruss's books "apostate". That's why there are missing references in a few spots.

  AlanF
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  VM44

  Thanks AlanF.

  Perhaps the Thiele quote is in Gruss's more recent book. --VM44

  

  Jehovah's Witnesses: Their Claims, Doctrinal Changes and Prophetic Speculation - $19 by Edmond C. Gruss
  In 1972 the author published The Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation (Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing--2nd edition 1975--with 8 printings). The book received good reviews, with Prof. M. James Penton stating: "For anyone interested in the Witnesses' prophecies and their failures, this book is a must." (Apocalypse Delayed. 2nd ed. 1997. Univ.of Toronto Press, p. 401).
  The present book began as a revision of the Speculation book of 127 pages (5 1/2" x 8 1/2" trim size). The revision is essentially a new book, with 372 pages (xv+357) in a 8 1/2" x 11" trim size. The computer count on the 650 manuscript pages was more than 187,000 words . The study is based on thousands of sources which document the subjects treated. The reviewers--all former Jehovah's Witnesses with outreach ministries to the Witnesses--comment on the book's significance.
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  willyloman

  VM44: Thanks for sharing this; the book's cover is just terrific -- I love how they wove "the generation of 1914" in among all the other failed prophecies and dates...
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  AlanF

  VM44, it was as I said: the reference you want is to the 2nd edition (1975; 7th printing, 1983) of Gruss's book, page 37.

  You really need to get hold of this book. To find a used copy, go to www.addall.com/used and you'll find several.

  AlanF
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  scholar

  VM44

  Thiele's criticism of Watchtower chronology and the source of your posted quotation of Thiele is probably in an earlier article of Ministry which is a SDA journal sent to all pastors. I have several letters by Thiele written to prominent SDA pastors in Australia but I could source this particular quote.

  However, Thiele was quite wrong in his criticism of the Aid book quoting him in regard to his summation of Ptolemy's Canon. The facts are quite clear in this matter and I am quite surprised that Alan F did not check this matter thoroughly before attacking the Society as shown in his treatment on WT chronology. Thiele made a isolated comment on Ptolemy's Canon on pages 216-7 in his Mysterious Numbers Of The Hebrew Kings, 1951, 1965, Paternoster Press, Exeter, Devon. The quotation in the Aid book is not out of context but is the first half of that sole paragraph under the heading Appendix G. The Appendix is titled The Rulers Of Babylon And Persia According To The Canon Of Ptolemy. Immediately below this heading is a chart of these rulers. Then underneath there is one paragraph containing ten lines. The rest of the page is blank which then preceeds the next Apendix H on pahe 218.

  It is impossible to misquote Thiele on this point and if he made such a stupid statement then more fool him because that statement coming from such an eminent chronologist, Christendom's finest has and will haunt his memory forever. If my memory serves me correctly Thiele repeats himself identically in his last revision of his great work.

  scholar

  BA MA Studies in Religion