Are some people REALLY better off in high-control groups?

by seattleniceguy 39 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Big Tex

  I understand that some people may be more comfortable with following orders than with thinking for themselves. But my question was whether people are actually better off in a high-control group. More comfortable does not necessarily have anything to do with better off.

  Ah, but you make the assumption that this sort of person has the emotional wherewithall, the drive and the desire to overcome their own fears, self-doubt and lack of self-confidence to make the tremendous leap out of such a high control group.

  You are an intelligent, self-aware man who gave himself permission to ask questions. I submit that those who stay in high-control groups or find them comfortable do not allow that in themselves.

  Timid, afraid, not trusting their own judgment, craving approval, repressing any and all feelings and desires that might go contrary to the majority, lacking awareness, willingness to blame others for their failures in life, average to below average IQ -- these are people that, historically, have found themselves drawn to philosphies, governments, movements, etc. that offer easy solutions to their problems. Communism, National Socialism, religious cults and on and on look to these types of people as their core group. "Your problems are caused by [fill in the blank]. Follow my way and you will be saved."

  I submit that such a person does not allow another option. There is no "better off". This person is inexorably drawn to a high control group like a moth to light. They are there because they want to be.

  Interesting question though.

  Chris
• 

  Golf

  Sad to say, but true, some people prefer to be told/controlled what to do. No need for details.
  
  
  Golf
• 

  RescueMe

  I think that there are people who are better off within a high control group. Some people just don't have the wherewithall to 'do it on their own". They really need that structure, and organization in order to maintain a semblance of normalcy. Without it they would completely crumble. Once you have been "trained" within that type of organization, for many it may well mean finding, or having that, throughout their lives in one manner of another. In that manner, they don't have to think for themselves, or make any major life changing decisions for themselves, as it's all basically done for them. If somewhere along the lines there is a bump in the road, they have someone else to take care of it for them, and they can continue along blissfully without worry that "they" made any wrong choice, because they have left all the choices up to others.
  

  It reminds me of the Shawshank Redemption, when Red is finally out of prison, and all he can think of is going back, because the daily routine of having everything planned out for him, without his having to even think of anything is so ingrained in who he is, that it's hard to break free of that. He can't get used to not having to ask to take a piss, since for nearly all of his life, it's all he's known, and even after being told he doesn't have to ask anymore, he's free to go when he needs to, he just can't seem to do that. Many don't want to break free of that control, and would be unable to handle it if they did. Now that doesn't mean I think there is a large percentage of people who are that way, in fact I think it would be relatively few, but I do believe that they are out there.
• 

  AlanF

  I think that only a tiny percentage of people are better off in a high control group like the JWs. Better off in the sense of living a reasonably happy, secure life, I guess.

  Many people in these cults feel better when they're in the group, but I don't think that, in a more objective sense, they're actually better off. How can they know, if they don't experience both worlds?

  This reminds me of my first wife. She literally could not put one foot in front of the other without knowing exactly where to put it and why she should put it there. She was a good match for the Big Daddy-ism of the Watchtower, since their greatest strength is in telling their followers where to put their feet. But the woman was raised a JW, and has never experienced life without the Watchtower. She's afraid of making decisions independent of them. The older she gets, the more set in her ways she is. I really have no idea how much more fulfilled someone like this could be if she were forced to be on her own in making the decisions of life.

  AlanF
• 

  wednesday

  Yes, I know someone like this. Suffering form mild paranoid schizophrenia and with tendency to drink and drug. They go off the deep end if not attending meeting. They really need the straight jacket the Org provides.

  Thankfully I do not.

  weds
• 

  Odrade

  Isn't this a relational question? Kind of like trying to define yin and yang, which are, of themselves, the modifiers.

  Some people are better off being in a high-control group than they were in their previous situation. Another way of life may be "better off" than than high-control group. And yet other choices may prove to be "better" than that...

  Look at it from another angle: are people really "worse off" for being in the JW religion? Worse off than what? What are we comparing to? The ideal? Who sets the standards? Are there still improvements to be made upon the accepted ideal? Are there still further descents to be made from being in a bad situation?

  Absolutely some people are in a better situation from joining a group such as the JWs. Could they improve their lot by exiting the group under more informed circumstances? Likely, but not certainly. Would I advocate JWism as a way to better one's lot in life? Absolutely NOT!

  Example: you live in a community where the tap water is foul, and your house pipes are rusty and disintegrating. When you run a glass of drinking water from the tap, you hold a paper towel under the faucet to filter out debris. Is your drinking water improved? Yes. Is it now safe to drink? No. But it is improved.

  If you are dying in the wilderness of dehydration, and come across an animal wallow that has water pooled in it, are you better off for having found and ingested the water? Yes, it may save your life. Given better circumstances (such as a full bottle of pure water,) would you ever dream of drinking wallow water? NO!

  Many people who drink the WTS' wallow water free are dehydrated and lost in some way. They are better off for finding the free wallow water. They may not have any idea that a mile up the hill there is a pure artesian spring, where they would be better still. It does not negate the fact that for some, the wallow water saved them from a worse condition.

  hehe, my caffeine induced opinion. FWIW
• 

  Big Dog

  I was thinking of alot guys that I knew that were pretty much losers that joined the military service. It seemed that after their tour of duty was over they had gotten themselves together, learned how to focus, pick a direction in their lives, etc. So in that limited sense yeah, maybe a high control group can do some good, but in a very limited sense.
• 

  peggy

  This is such a mixed group! We have some here who are conducting book studies, some who are attending meetings occasionally, questioning but staying, and still others who have walked completely away, even to the point of sending in a disassociating letter. There is a range of hatred for the WTS to confusion and distrust. Holly went back, and many are reacting the same way that a conductor of a long term bible study reacts when a study is discontinued. Hurt, sad, frustrated.

  Holly did a great job of questioning. That personality doesn't go away. Many are in the Org. and have very distinct personalities, rebellious ones. They are elders, ms, pioneers, publishers and they are good people. I am still questioning, and learning everyday. I have no idea what the future holds.

  I've thought about society in general, and how unjust this world is. How unfair life can be. It takes strong individuals to create change. I'm not completely sure that this won't happen as time goes on. I really believe that a huge shake up will occur in this organization. Will humility prevail? Only time will tell. The God of this universe is a God of justice.

  I don't post often, but I lurk everyday. I enjoy the diverse views. I laugh, cry, get angry. I see intelligence and mental illness on this forum. All of it feeds my soul.

  Peg
• 

  jeanniebeanz

  They want someone else at the driver's wheel.

  This is very true in my personal experience when, having provided ample evidence to show that the witnesses to not have the truth, some will just say, "I will wait on Jehovah (read organization)." Some people have no desire to run their own lives. They have abdicated all responsibility for it to others so that they will be blameless for any errors.

  It is extremely passive agressive behavior in that one does not have to work to make necessary changes for the better, and at 'judgement day' they will be able to just say, "I was just following orders."

  I believe it was exactly these types of people who Jesus was refering to when he said that in that day many would come saying they had been his followers, only to be denied because of their 'evil' works (hiding child abuse, destroying families, killing members through the blood issue, talking people into joining the same group, allowing brothers to die over a political card and at the same time joining the UN, being a false prophet, financial ruination of their members by demonizing education, creating an entire generation of insecure, uneducated, close-minded, judgemental people).

  You cannot abdicate your own responsibility for your life and expect to be able to hide behind an organization. It does not work that way.

  J
• 

  JAVA

  Many people in these cults feel better when they're in the group, but I don't think that, in a more objective sense, they're actually better off. How can they know, if they don't experience both worlds?

  As usual, Alan offers some interesting points. If I "feel better" in a high-control group, I can say I'm better off, but someone else can also say, "no you're not." Who's right?

  To a large extent it depends on who's answering, because life is not always objective. Ideally, if all are on the same playing field (e.g., same eduction, income, life experiences) we could be more objective about actually being better off in high-control groups. But there's the rub, we're all a little to a lot different. I think it's possible to say "some people are better off in high-control groups" because we're talking about "some people."

  Objectively, "some people" are better off in jail (a high-control group) because they can do less harm to themselves and others. Indeed, there are some Watchtower leaders I would like to help reach this potential.