"I have been" or "I am" for John 8:58

by JW Ben 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Narkissos

  It takes a "scholar" to miss that the real issue is the connection between (1) the characteristic absolute use of egô eimi in the GREEK original text of GJohn and (2) the similar absolute use of egô eimi in the GREEK LXX translation of Deuteronomy, Isaiah etc. On this issue English translations, including the NWT, are of course irrelevant as they all translate the OT from the Hebrew MT.

  Which makes me wonder whether our scholar knows anything about Biblical languages. Here in France, a degree in "religious studies" is usually granted to the students who didn't make it through Biblical languages and exegesis courses. Is it the same across the pond?

  Scholar, would you translate Isaiah 43:10 (a verse cherished by JWs) from the Greek for us?
• 

  jeanniebeanz

  The NWT has proved itself to be at the cutting edge in Greek NT studies and lovers of truth are very grateful to Almighty God that such a superb transaltion of God's inspired Word is now so readily available in some fifty languages. Truly, a blessed gift to mankind.

  Kinda doubt that one, Scholar. It's too full of questionable translations to be taken seriously by the religious community, a community that has degrees from Universities they are not ashamed to reveal.

  J
• 

  Leolaia

  Narkissos....Thanks for pointing out the obvious to scholar. Without using any English translation, the parallels between John 8:24, 28, 13:19 and Isaiah 43:10 LXX are quite apparent:
  

  Isaiah 43:10: "...hina gnóte kai pisteuséte kai sunete hoti egó eimi..."

  John 8:24: "ean gar me pisteuséte hoti egó eimi..."

  John 8:28: "...tote gnósesthe hoti egó eimi."

  John 13:19: "...hina pisteuséte hotan genétai hoti egó eimi."

  The high density of "I am" expressions in John is reminiscent of the frequency of egó eimi in Isaiah 40-55 LXX (cf. 41:4, 43:10, 43:25, 46:4, 47:8, 10, 52:6, 45:18, 51:12), which exclusively have divine reference or occur in imitation of divine usage. The blasphemous imitative examples of absolute egó eimi in Isaiah 47:8, 10 (which clearly are patterned after 45:18, 47:8 and Deuteronomy 32:29) echo Yahweh's declarations and indicate it is a feature of divine language. John 8:58 is connected to Isaiah by constituting the third example of unmodified and absolute egó eimi in ch. 8, the previous two examples being verbally allusive of Isaiah 43:10, and Isaiah 43:10-13 is thematically connected to John 8:58 by stressing God's eternity. Isaiah 43:13 (MT) is also verbally similar: "From ancient days (gm-mywm) I am ('ny hw')". (Compare KJV, "Before the day was, I am he"). When I have a chance I'm going to check Theodotion and Symmachus to see how this is rendered. Another clear parallel with John 8:58 is Psalm 90:2 LXX: "Before the mountains came into existence (pro tou oré genéthénai) ... you are (su ei)". Note that in this case there is a contrast in tense and both use the present to indicate God's continuing eternal existence. These are very illuminative of John 8:58. If one looks only at this verse without its broader context (the rest of ch. 8), it is easy to miss these striking resemblances.
• 

  Leolaia

  I found a copy of the Hexpla online, and it looks like there may be versional support for egó eimi in Isaiah 43:13 (Greek), tho I'm not sure what the source precisely is:

  http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/FieldOrigenv2?seq=528
• 

  the_classicist

  I hate to tell you JWBen, but quoting a bunch of translations does not make your arguement any more valid. Try studying Hellenistic Greek for at least 10 years, then you can come and talk to us.
• 

  Oroborus21

  The point of the scriptures is so very simple that it is too often not ony misunderstood but misapplied by persons.

  I will make it extremely simple for you:

  THE BIBLE IS NOT ITSELF THE REVELATION ABOUT GOD TO MANKIND.

  THE BIBLE IS A RECORD OF THE REVELATION ABOUT GOD TO MANKIND.

  One must therefore be very cautious about being overly concerned about specific wording, scriptures or passages (nor do I need to add that it is pure folly to base entire doctrines on the turning of a phrase, word or tittle).

  Try to see the big picture and you won't go wrong.

  -Eduardo
• 

  Leolaia

  Eduardo....I would disagree with the view that scriptural concepts are generally simple and self-evident; the Bible was written in ancient foreign languages with their own idioms and the intellectual environment NT writers found themselves in was a diverse and dynamic one. The TDNT (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) may give some rough indication of the conceptual complexity and diversity. Furthermore, there are some obscure notions in scripture (e.g. "third heaven", "baptism for the dead", etc.) which made sense to readers in the first century but are confusing or incomprehensible to people today because we lack the broader cultural and intellectual environment of time. The problem with the "big picture" is that it is often a harmonization or compromise between overlapping but distinct concepts.

  However I agree that it is hazardous and foolish to base one's faith on such shaky ground as a single turn of phrase -- but often that is the case when doctrines are constructed out of interpretations of scripture.