LOL....Narkissos!! That's hilarious!
Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?
by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hillary_step
The publication Paradise Restored to Mankind- clearly sets out the many fasts which the exiles commemorated annually during the seventy years from the Fall of Jerusalem right up to the time of 519 BCE.
LOL.....There you have it. The sound of Scholar-Puppet's dart bouncing from the dart-board and skewering his own foot.
HS
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Alleymom
Narkissos noted that: Scholar just wrote:
The publication Paradise Restored to Mankind- clearly sets out the many fasts which the exiles commemorated annually during the seventy years from the Fall of Jerusalem right up to the time of 519 BCE.
Scholar ALSO just wrote:
Your claim that the FDS teaches that there are two 'seventy year' periods is hysterical. ... this sole seventy year period could only have begun after the Fall of Jerusalem
... Because the now returned exiles were continuously fasting does not prove that there was another seventy year period independent of Jeremialh's seventy years.And then he promptly goes on to name TWO seventy year periods!
#1 --- "This seventy year period of exile "
#2 --- " a seventy year period of mourning as demonstrated by the annual fastings."Neil, if the idea of two seventy year periods is "hysterical," then how come you yourself just identified TWO seventy year periods??? A seventy year period of exile AND a seventy year period of mourning.
Marjorie
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AlanF
scholar pretendus wrote:
: Response to post 4073
: Nope!
Yup!
: Your exegesis of Zechariah 7:5 is fanciful.
Nope! I quoted what Fred Franz wrote in the Paradise Restored book, which he probably wrote accidently because he didn't realize that his simple commentary contradicted the Society's overall claims.
You're not denying that the book actually says what I quoted, are you?
: Your claim that the FDS teaches that there are two 'seventy year' periods is hysterical.
I'm perfectly well aware that the Society's leaders (i.e., the unfaithful and indiscreet false prophet) don't teach this in an overall sense, of course. My point was that this book contradicts their overall teaching, and does so in a way that proves that a natural reading of the text of Zechariah 7 shows that the Society's overall teaching is dead wrong.
: The publication Paradise Restored to Mankind- clearly sets out the many fasts which the exiles commemorated annually during the seventy years from the Fall of Jerusalem right up to the time of 519 BCE.
518 B.C., more precisely. But what's a year here or there?
But you're nearly right -- there were definitely 70 years from Jerusalem's fall in 587 to the point at which Zechariah is describing the events of 518 B.C. This is stated clearly by the Paradise Restored book.
: In other words those annual fasts of mourning were of events that reminded the exiles of Jehovah's judgements against them. This seventy year period of exile was a constant reminder of the contemporaneous desolation of their homeland
Uh, no. You keep ignoring the simple fact that if the desolation were 70 years, the exile was at most 69.5 years.
: and was memorialized by a seventy year period of mourning as demonstrated by the annual fastings. As shown by the footnote on page 237 this sole seventy year period could only have begun after the Fall of Jerusalem and not to some previous airy-fairy event unknown to apostates
The event is well known, as I have shown in my previous post -- which as usual, you've ignored. I.e., the 70 years for Babylon began in 609 B.C. when the Babylonians killed off the Assyrian Empire at the battle of Haran.
: because that seventy yeras period was a constant reminder odf events that occured during and after the Fall of Jerusalem.
Whatever. This is irrelevant.
: Because the now returned exiles were continuously fasting does not prove that there was another seventy year period independent of Jeremialh's seventy years.
Of course it does, in view of Zechariah's direct statement that the period of fasting was 70 years. First, your claim here shows that you agree with the statement in the Paradise Restored book that the Bethelites raised the question, not of whether they should begin again a fast that they had left off 20 years earlier, but whether they should "continue to hold such a fast". Second, the Society directly states that the Bethelites "had been celebrating" that fast, namely, were continuing to hold it. Third, if the Bethelites were continuing to celebrate the fast in 518 B.C., and they commenced that fast in 607 B.C., then the time period of fasting was obviously 90 years, counting inclusively. But that contradicts the direct statement in Zech. 7:5, namely, that the fasting lasted 70 years.
You can't have it both ways, there, scholar pretendus. Us "wiley apostates" and the Watchtower Society and you agree that the fast continued in 518 B.C. Either the period of fasting was 70 years or 90 years. If you claim it was 90 years, you contradict the Bible. If you admit it was 70 years, then it was a different 70-year period than either the 70 years for Babylon, or the 70 years you claim was the time of desolation of Judah. Thus there were at least two 70-year periods.
: The exiles were simply following a tradition, a tradition that during their exile of seventy years they reminded themselves of their loss.
How long were they fasting by 518 B.C.? 70 years or 90?
: Proof of the fact that the seventy years mentioned by the angel was in fact the seventy yeras of exile and of desolation of the land is that the angel continues from verse 7 which refers back to their former uninhabited land.
Proof? This passage is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the period of fasting was 70 or 90 years, or when the period began or ended.
: Similarly, the rest of the oracle from verses 8-14 clearly demonstrate the results of not obeying Jehovah which resulted in their deporation and the desolation of the land.
Again entirely irrelevant.
: Contextually, this chapter can only refer to that sole seventy years spoken by Jeremiah and Daniel marked by exile, desolation, servitude and mourning from 607 until 537BCE.
Wrong. As I've proved, the Society's direct statements and the actual context disagree with you.
Readers will note that, just as I expected vis a vis my quotation of Orwell, scholar pretendus has completely ignored or misrepresented everything in my arguments that he can't deal with -- which is everything in my arguments.
AlanF
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scholar
Alleymom
Response to post 443
Marjorie
It is certainly the case that within scholarship that the 'seventy year' period is widely interpreted and refers to several different periods, this confusion is caused when scholars and wiley poztates abandon the clear statements of scripture. The prophecies in Zechariah chapters 1 and 7 clearly refer to that past historic event of desolation, exile, servitude, denunciation and mournings of 'seventy years'.
Your objection centres on the erroneous claim that in verse 12 of chapter one that it refers to 'these seventy years' and in 7:5 has 'these seventy years'. and therefore that such a rendering indicates that such periods are ongoing or continuative and cannot refer to that period as a past-time event.
I reject this proposition because it does not accord with the facts:
Zechariah 1:7 as rendered by the NWT has 'these seventy years'. The question must be asked as to when or what do these seventy years refer? The fact that a finite period of 'seventy years' is announced would logically refer that period had already been fulfilled or completed in order for it to be a definite period. The text does not give us a chronology for that period whether to past-present-future time. It simply refers to a period of time, complete unto itself. However the text associates this period with three key elements which can only be satisfied with that seventy yera period of exile, desolation and servitude from the Fall of Jerusalem to the Return to Jerusalem. What then are these three elements? The verse speaks of Jerusalem-cities of Judah- denunciation which are linked to the seventy years. So, the text itself clearly refers to that former past period which was marked by those three elements
Zechariah 7:5 as rendered by the NWT has 'and this for seventy years'. The context of this verse is the description of the annual fastings by the exiles which commemorated their loss in exile. Such annual fastings continued right up to that present time in their now new homeland. However,it draws the people's attention to the fastings which occurred during that previous seventy year period. This proven by the first fact that the these various fasts memorialized key events that happened on or soon after the Fall of Jerusalem in 607BCE. These fasts did not memorialize any events prior to that date but only after that significant event of the Fall which proves that the seventy year period could only have occurred after 607BCE..
Further, Daniel himself in Daniel 9:2 written in the first year of Darius discerned that the seventy years was shortly to finish and so it was that under the decree of Cyrus, the exiles returned home in 537BCE thus ending the seventy years as attested by 2 Chronicles 36:20
Those who argue for multiples of seventy years only serve to introduce confusion into the mix. For example, How many seventy year periods are there? Two, four, five ,,six? Also. there is the problem of chronology for every distinct period A, B.C.D etc there must be a distinct beginning and ending but proponents of such a pluralistic theory cannot provide such data.
There is one theory of an 'evolving' seventy years which assumes that the concept of the seventy years somehow developed over time. Such a theory is blatantly absurd for it assumes that those servant of Jehovah who live at the time and who lived soon after those important historical events were somewaht confused or ignorant about such matters. The facts are that Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra wrote sound history which is full acknowledge as truthful, Josephus also serve as a independent witness to this past history. Those original narrators wrote with sound specific data that shows no trace of ignorance or confusion.
In short, the FDS has wisely provide a clear and harmonious account of the years completely validated by Covenant and Kingdom Theology of the OT.
scholar JW
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toreador
I think I may be getting confused by all this.
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scholar
Alleymom
Response to post 444
Marjorie
There is only one period of seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah. This period was of exile, desolation of the land, servitude to Babylon. a period of mourning and denunuciation. It began in 607BCE and finished in 537BCE.
scholar JW
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hillary_step
Scholar,
According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, The Christian Congreation of Jehovah's Witnesses and all its afiiliated corporations, there is only one period of seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah. This period was of exile, desolation of the land, servitude to Babylon. a period of mourning and denunuciation. It began in 607BCE and finished in 537BCE. Of course the rest of mankind, including its most noted scholars disagree, but as they will soon all be dead, who bloody cares anyway - and that includes you Marjorie - so enjoy the few months that you have left.
I have added portions to your post that clarify your statements and included a scarce dimension normally missing in your posts. Honesty.
HS
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toreador
Hillary you can sure come up with some quick wit. Were you really a CO or DO once upon a time?
Tor
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scholar
Alan F
Response to post 4076
Nope! Yup!
The period of fasting and mourning began with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 and not in the spurious date 587 and continued right up to the 2nd year of Darius and his 4th year which gives a total of some 90 years. Such a period included the 'seventy years' of exile-desolation-servitude and it is this same period that Zechariah referred to in the remaining portion of his seventh chapter.
You claim that in Zechariah 7:5 that the fasting lasted 70 years and is a direct statement but you are reading into the next a meaning that is not there. The text simply states that they had been fasting for seventy years and the reader is reminded of that earlier seventy years of exile, servitude, desolation and fastings as shown by the immediate context to that chapter.
So, the fasting lasted at least 90 years in answer to your sincere question and as a tradition was commensurate with the already fulfilled seventy years of Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra.
scholar JW