Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alleymom

    Reply to your last post

    Marjorie

    Thank you for your best wishes re Bro. Shearman and as soon as it is practicable I will ask him about zeh, it is most unlikely that he will himself post on this board but print out for him or email these postings and ask him for a definitive opinion on matters, Hebrew.

    I wiil now address the issue of the period of mourning and then will comment on the poztates seventy year confusion. The two texts in Zechariah refer to a period of seventy years. The first example clearly refers to a past epochal period because of its association with elements characteristic of that period according to Jeremiah. The second example of the period has the additional element unlike the first, of annual fasting and mournings. The annual events coomenced with the Fall and were celebrated annually from that time right up to the time of Zechariah's prophecy. This latter period would be 90 years and the former was seventy years both commencing from the Fall.with a period of exile-desolation-servitude-denunciation-mourning until the Return whereupon exile-desolation-servitude-denunciation ceased. So seventy years was fulfilled in 537 with the Jews back home and still with an unfinished temple but a period of mouning continued right up to 518.

    In proof of the fact that these seventy years was a past event and could not have been a present event is the simple fact that we have a seventy years A at the 2nd Darius and seventy years B at the 4th year of Darius. Now, does this mean we have two separate periods or are they the same and if there are two periods then how can they be tagged? in other words, how can they be described?

    The Jonsson hypothesis is somewhat fuzzy and clearly confused on this point of chronology. I refer you to GTR, 1998, 3rd edn, pp 224-229:

    Jonsson gives the folowing dates for Zechariah 1:12;

    587---519 = 68 years

    589---519 = 70 years

    Zechariah 7:5

    587---518/17= 69 years+4 mths

    = 69 years +2 mths.

    Therefore, the range is from 589---517= 72 years

    However, the picture becomes further confused because on page 229 it is now not two periods but one period beginning from the earliest 589 down till the latest 515 which gives a maximum span of 74 years. Of course, with such a number of variable dates, numerous permutations are indeed possible and this is the tragic consequence of treating the seventy years as a present event at the time of Zechariah because such a stupid interpretation makes any chronology impossible as the above schema demonstrates. The seventy years is no lonher 'seventy ' but anything from a possible 68 years ranging to a possible 72 years. Therfore, according to the Jonsson hypothesis it can no longer be 70 literal yeras but simply a 'round number'. So when you try to argue for a present-time seventy years you are really arguing for a mythical period of time as a round number.

    scholar JW

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Anyone get the feeling that scholar pretendus is really a monkey?

    AlanF

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    as soon as it is practicable I will ask him about zeh, it is most unlikely that he will himself post on this board but print out for him or email these postings and ask him for a definitive opinion on matters, Hebrew.

    OMG !

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom
    Thank you for your best wishes re Bro. Shearman and as soon as it is practicable I will ask him about zeh, it is most unlikely that he will himself post on this board but print out for him or email these postings and ask him for a definitive opinion on matters, Hebrew.

    Neil --

    You seem pretty certain that Mr. Shearman will not post on the board. I do wish you would ask him to consider it. Since he is willing to read the print outs and emails and provide comments for you to post here, it seems like not much more of a step for him to take to visit the board and express himself directly. If there are privacy issues involved, he can certainly take a screen name.

    Third party discussions of this nature are rather frustrating, especially when it comes to a discussion of the Hebrew text.

    Please ask Mr. Shearman to explain the difference between zeh and hu' ("this" and "that").

    As you have seen earlier in this thread, it is essential to consult the Hebrew text and not just English translations when doing exegesis.

    The demonstratives this/these and that/those indicate respective distance, either geographical or temporal.

    "Those days of long ago"; "this year, this week, this summer"; "this house" (right here in front of me); "that house" (pointing across the street).

    If you want to know whether the "seventy years" spoken of in Zechariah is ongoing or whether it refers to seventy years in the past, you need to find out what "zeh" means.

    As you probably know, scholars say that "THESE seventy years" (remember the Hebrew is the singular "this") indicates that the period of mourning is ongoing.

    Marjorie

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    I would like to thank all posters of this thread. I am by no means scholared in the material presented, however, all of your explinations have increased my understanding of the texts involved and the dispute of JW understanding.

    humbly

    steve

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Marjorie,

    You seem pretty certain that Mr. Shearman will not post on the board. I do wish you would ask him to consider it. Since he is willing to read the print outs and emails and provide comments for you to post here, it seems like not much more of a step for him to take to visit the board and express himself directly. If there are privacy issues involved, he can certainly take a screen name.

    If he really does exist, he will probably remain in the shadows where he can impress naive Jehovah's Witnesses and bask in unseen glory rather than defend his position publicly. This takes no effort and as he is unlikely to be contradicted, will allow for peace and unity to prevail in Congregation Cuckooland. I feel very sure that we have read many of Elder Shearman's thoughts on the matter in recent months anyway.

    Frankly, if you have a Puppet that is prepared to do all your 'dirty' work for you, why bother getting your hands soiled?

    Alan,

    Anyone get the feeling that scholar pretendus is really a monkey?

    I thought that for a while, but realizing that a monkey can be taught new tricks convinced me otherwise.

    HS

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    As you probably know, scholars say that "THESE seventy years" (remember the Hebrew is the singular "this") indicates that the period of mourning is ongoing.

    Actually, we could make this into another corpus study....list all the examples of zeh + DURATION (e.g. "these days", "these years", "these eleven weeks", etc.), and then find if any of these included examples in which the stated DURATION was clearly completed or no longer in progress at the time of writing or assumed by the narrative. And if so, whether such a usage is consistent with the wording in Zechariah.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alleymom and Leolaia

    There is no need for another corpus study as I am perfectly happy to embrace 'these seventy years' or as the NWT puts it 'this for seventy years' in Zechariah 7:5 and 'these seventy years' in Zechariah 1:12. The concept of 'these seventy years' certainly does convey in English, the idea of present time but it also can convey the bringing back of a past time event into the present. For example, one could say; Remember what you did at the last District Convention! So now by way of a reminder some past event is now brought into a present conversation. When the angel had the conversation with the Zechariah, he that is the angel was bringing back to the matter at hand, the period of mourning and its duration and reminding the prophet that in the past seventy years they had mourned. It is really quite simple. QED

    If you persist with the present-time interpretation then could nominate what precise year in both prophecies the seventy years ended as it could not ended in both the 2nd and 4th year of Darius do it must have ended at some point earlier. So, which year or years was it?

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    You flatter me for according to your atheism-agnosticism and pseudo scientism, mankind evolved from the monkey! So I am in good company.

    scholar JW

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    scholar: You flatter me for according to your atheism-agnosticism and pseudo scientism, mankind evolved from the monkey! So I am in good company.

    Perhaps you should stick to the liguistics. You have a better grasp of that subject. Man evolved from ... implying that they left off many traits peculiar to their forebears and are typically better adjusted to their environs in their present form than their forebears would be. Typically it is not a compliment to be considered an aberrant genetic throwback to a former life-form, which would make the one so considered an ill-fitting member of any present society.

    But if that's flattery to you, who am I to rain on your parade?

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