Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

Alleymom

Response to Scholar's post 571 to Hilary_Step:
For your information Bro. Shearman has been down with the Flu for the last few days so he has simply looked at the posted material, I only engage the Hebraist when I need some assistance with the Hebrew.
Neil,
Please convey my best wishes to Bro. Shearman along with my hopes for a speedy recovery. I would enjoy discussing some of the Hebrew text with him. Please pass along an invitation for him to join the discussion here when he is feeling better.
When you next have a chance, would you please ask him to go over the Hebrew text of Zech. 1:12 and 7:3 and 7:5 with you? In particular, I would draw your (and his) attention to the word "zeh" which is used in these verses.
I posted a message to you about this last night and you did touch on it briefly in your response, but only with reference to the English, not the Hebrew.
In post 567 you said: " Zechariah 1:7 as rendered by the NWT has 'these seventy years'. " I think you meant 1:12, not 1:7.
[Edited to say, I checked and the NWT reference is *** Rbi8 Zechariah 1:12 ***. 12 So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: "O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?"]
In my post 443 (CLICK HERE ) I asked you about the word translated as THESE. In Hebrew the word "zeh" is in the singular (literally "THIS"), modifying the singular noun YEAR which occurs with the plural adjective SEVENTY. This is not an unusual construction in Hebrew. It literally says THIS SEVENTY YEAR emphasizing the seventy period period as a whole.
And which 70-year period is being spoken of in Zech. 1:12? THIS one. The fasts have continued THESE seventy years.
The Hebrew does not refer to THAT 70-year period, i.e to THOSE seventy years which ended in 537, according to you. It refers to an ongoing period, THESE seventy years.
When Bro. Shearman is better, please ask him about this.
Thank you.
Marjorie
Narkissos

The period of fasting and mourning began with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 and not in the spurious date 587 and continued right up to the 2nd year of Darius and his 4th year which gives a total of some 90 years. Such a period included the 'seventy years' of exile-desolation-servitude and it is this same period that Zechariah referred to in the remaining portion of his seventh chapter.
You claim that in Zechariah 7:5 that the fasting lasted 70 years and is a direct statement but you are reading into the next a meaning that is not there. The text simply states that they had been fasting for seventy years and the reader is reminded of that earlier seventy years of exile, servitude, desolation and fastings as shown by the immediate context to that chapter.

Scholar, then you do believe there are two 70-y periods... one which the text simply states (down to 519/8 BC, the beginning of which has to be arbitrary since according to you Jerusalem's fall which was the actual beginning of fasting occurred 90, not 70 years earlier) and an earlier seventy years of exile (down to 538/7) etc. which the reader is reminded of.
scholar

Alleymom
Response to all of your last posts
Marjorie
I like to keep things simple so that the matter under discussion can be fully comprehended by all so I hope my folowing comments will address the matter fully.
We have under dispute two texts from Zechariah namely 1:12 and 7:5 which share in common the certain fact namely the mention of a finite period of seventy years. Now in the first text the seventy years is mentioned in connection with three key elements which could only have been a reminder or rejoinder of a past historic event. These elements are Jerusalem-cities of Judah-denumciations. These three elements form a composite of the themes prophesied earier by Jeremiah who also combined these same elements with his prophecy on the seventy years. So, in context it is well proved that these seventy years of Zechariah are the same seventy years spoken by Jeremiah.
Now the second text once again refers to a finite period of seventy years but in addition it refers to period of mourning and fasting which at that time as of 519/8 the Jews continued this annual custom which began at the time of the Fall of the Jerusalem. This period of fasting and mourning was commensurate with the seventy years which also began at the Fall, this same seventy years marked throughout its duration by annual fastings finished soon after the Fall of Babylon according to Daniel 9:2. This means that the period of mourning and fasting continued past the end of the seventy years right up to the present time of 518/9BCE. The fact that the seventy yeras was once again a past historic event is proven by the immediate context. the remainding verses from 6-14 which again refer to those themes of Jeremiah that the prophet linked to the seventy years.
In conclusion, these two texts of Zechariah lock together the other texts of Jeremiah, Daniel 2 Chronicles give a singular period of seventy years marked by exile-desolation-servitude-denunciation and mourning which ran from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537.
scholar JW
scholar

Narkissos
No, there is and can only be one period of seventy years and this consistent with Zechariah, Jeremiah, Daniel and 2 Chronicles.
scholar JW
ozziepost

well, that was short, sharp and to the point!
Alleymom

Neil --
I am wondering if you had read my message 448 ( CLICK )asking about the Hebrew word "zeh" when you posted your message 573?
In #573 you said:
: This means that the period of mourning and fasting continued past the end of the seventy years right up to the present time of 518/9BCE.
In your earlier post 566 you referred to it as " a seventy year period of mourning as demonstrated by the annual fastings."
So which is it? Is it a seventy year period of mourning (as you said in post 566) or is it a "period of mourning and fasting [which] continued past the end of the seventy years"? It can't be both a 70-year period AND a 90-year period.
Once again, please note that the period of mourning and fasting which you say continued past the end of the seventy years is itself referred to with the Hebrew "zeh". Please be sure to read the post where I asked you to consult your friend Mr.Shearman about this. It occurs in 1:12, 7:3, and 7:5.
In Zech. 7:3:
"Shall I weep in the fifth month and abstain, as I have done these many years?"
NOT "as I used to do during THOSE years."
Marjorie
Narkissos

Scholar,
It takes more than mere denial to get out of the logical dead end you have cornered yourself into. Read your own posts again.
The majority of scholars today are blinded by 'higher criticism' so it is not surprising that their views of matters differ to the Lord;s people.
You should add that the majority of scholars yesterday were blinded by Christendom's babylonish false doctrines.
However the WT conveniently makes selective use of both types of scholarship when it seems to go their way.
-- Btw, before you decide to learn Hebrew you could improve your JWish... "The Lord;s (sic) people"...
hillary_step

Ozzie,
I think scholar has gone along unquestioningly with the whole WT notion that those who they call apostates couldn't possibly be intelligent or faithful or "responsible" brothers.
If only they knew, eh? It'd make 'em mess themselves methinks. It'd make a change from messing with people's minds.
Too true.
The problem is that Scholar-Puppet ( TM ) wants the best of all worlds. He has clearly been trounced beyond further questioning on this thread but merely dismisses the scholarship as 'higher criticism' when it disagrees with the WTS.
Any who may have had more than the usual responsibilities as JW's in the past ( like yourself ) and are now 'wily poztates' are easily dismissed as having the bad heart syndrome so dismally chanted by the WTS in its publications. You know the kind of thing : apostates do not like going out on service, apostates are proud, apostates are impatient and should wait on God for change, and the most comical of them all, uttered after a thirty-year JW leaves the corporation - "they were not of our sort'....lol
Scholar-Puppet ( TM) is happily living in the dissonant WTS world where the slogan is 'heads I win, tails you lose'.
Best regards - HS
hillary_step

Scholar,
Please convey my best wishes to Bro. Shearman along with my hopes for a speedy recovery. I would enjoy discussing some of the Hebrew text with him. Please pass along an invitation for him to join the discussion here when he is feeling better.
I concur in both wishing Elder Shearman a swift recovery and also inviting him to make a direct defence of his views on this Board.
Bring on the puppet-master. -
HS
hillary_step

Scholar-Puppet,
Really, the New Testament speaks about the wise ones are confounded by the humle ones and those unlettered, even Jesus who was regarded as foolish by the rabbinical leaders of his day was a simple artisan and yet he was gifted with knowledge from His heavenly Father.
I have a number of times pointed out your blatant hypocrisy regarding such statements highlighted above. I find myself yet again having to bring to your attention that it was I who first introduced the NT thought that you may be siding with the 'wise and intellectual ones' by :
1) Repeatedly displaying your educational credentials at the foot of each post you made on this and other Boards in an attempt to foster confidence in yourself as a scholar.
2) Your assertion that Carl Jonsson could not be trusted as he had no educational credentials, but was 'unlettered and ordinary'.
3) The very use of your own handle - 'scholar' implies that you desire not to be 'unlettered and ordinary'.
At that stage I asked if you recall, what educational credentials any member of the Governing Body might have. We were met with deafening silence. As usual, taking a leaf from the WTS, you use what is at hand in any dishonest way concievable to shore up confidence in your failing corporation.
HS

Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

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