i need some skeptic input... dreams that come true

by googlemagoogle 121 Replies latest jw friends

  • sonnyboy
    sonnyboy

    Although it's dubious that the Christian god exists, premonitions make me believe that there's some spiritual force at work on our planet.

    I used to have a recurring dreams about a town in the mountains. I remember standing atop a large hill, looking down on a cobblestone street lined with old brick buildings. In the center of the street were tourists, two of which were wearing orange life preservers for some reason. I'd see my stepfather standing on top of a large rock overlooking a cliff, which was supported on the right side by two metal posts. I'd then appear in a pet store with a large artificial pond in the middle of the floor. I'd walk to the reptile room and look up to see a camera with a sign underneath saying, "SMILE!"

    A few years ago I took a trip to Harper's Ferry, WV. I saw everything exactly as I'd dreamed, from the cobblestone street, to the white-water-rafters wearing life preservers, to the large rock, to the pet store with the smile sign under the camera.

    So yeah, I believe that dreams can very well come true. I have no idea how this works, but I've seen too much evidence, first and second hand, to not believe.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Crumpet:

    Its not that I think you are making it up, but maybe the people who's dreams you are relating are eager to believe and have remembered wrongly...

    No, I was very careful about that, otherwise what's the point even discussing it? I insisted on a fair exchange of info, including a drawing session of something that neither of us had described. I also accurately indicated the other person's vantage point, which was different from my own.

    How much control do you have over this?

    I can "auto-suggest" before I go to sleep, but what my soul does is it's business.
    There's that much going on in my life, at the moment, that most of my current dreams are the subconscious problem-solving kind.

  • Mary
    Mary
    and remaining the ultimate skeptic, I have had cause to wonder how far the human brain could evolve given time, and wonder whether some form of telepathic activity is feasible.

    I agree. We don't have all the answers and it's well known that we only use a fraction of our brain power. I believe telepathy and seeing parts of the future is part of our brain that we simply haven't been able to really tap into yet. I was watching a program the other day called: Proof Positive: Evidence of the Paranormal. It puts claims of paranormal activities under scientific scrutiny. Some have no basis whatsoever, some are questionable, and some strongly indicate that something is going on. The program dealt with the idea of telepathy between identical twins. They put one twin in a room with an observer and the other twin was somewhere else in the building (or maybe even a different bldg, I can't remember) and they gave the one twin a card that said "happy" or "angry" or other things on it. The receiving twin had to come up with the correct response and had no way of knowing what was going on on the other end. The one set of twins got 7 out of 8 questions right, that's 85%----far above the 25% that science says is "chance". So it does seem that our brains are somehow capable of alot more than what we're doing now.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    I saw everything exactly as I'd dreamed

    You are suggesting that there is a mystical spiritual force that gave you premonitions of an incidental event that had no real significance. If these experiences are attributed to such a powerful force, why can't this amazing powerful force do something a little more worthwhile than giving vacation previews.

    Assuming that you did actually have the recurring dream before you went to the place, and that the dream actually contained the exact details of the scene (rather than similar aspects that you later convinced yourself were identical), this would require that either the scenario was influenced to mimic your dream, or every event in the universe is predetermined.

    It would be very difficult to focus on a particular place in the future given that the absolute position of all physical bodies for an unknown future time would be very difficult if not absolutely impossible to calculate.

    This only leaves the very theoretical possibility that the future events are actually *remembered*, however there is no basis for DNA-based lifeforms to have such an alternate perception of temporal existence, and there is no reason why such a manifestation would specifically occur during a dream.

    Impossible? Maybe not, but I remain sceptical.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    we only use a fraction of our brain power

    There is a common mistaken belief that specific parts of the brain are unused by most people, allowing for the belief that some people have harnassed that part of their brain to tell the future and so forth.

    If we only use 10% of our brain, why are almost all brain injuries detrimental if 90% is gap filler? The real issue is the potential for synaptic connections between neurons allowing for storage of information. There is no evidence that any number of these connections would enable someone to tell the future beyond the ability to deduce outcomes from observable data.

    Which part of your brain do you feel could safely be removed? I would like to keep mine intact.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Jeffro:
    Just a word to the wise; that kind of "tone" stiffles such discussions. Are you that disparaging in real life?

    If you have a rational explanation, then by all means offer it. If not, what are you going to offer other than condescension?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    I have presented rational arguments. If I have said something untrue, I would gladly have someone point it out.

    If someone has a rational explanation to support supernatural reasons for these phenomena I would be most interested to hear it. I too have experienced deja vu at times (maybe once a month) where it has seemed that I have known exactly how certain events would pan out, but I have not automatically attributed them to mystical forces of the universe.

    In a previous post, I touched on the concept of temporal mechanics. This is an extremely complex theoretical topic to which you might want to refer to information from Stephen Hawking and other physicists. Another of my previous posts touched on theories relating to deja vu.

    If the statement regarding having part of the brain removed appeared condescending that was not my intent - it simply illustrates that no surgeon would agree to remove large areas of 'vestigial' brain matter.

    The topic of this thread intrinsically calls for sceptism (or 'skeptism' for our American readers).

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    The 'we use a fraction of our brain' thing, as Jeffro points out, is rubbish; this is a statement dating from the early part of the 20th Century, no one has any idea who first said it, but it was taken up and is now a full-blown urban myth. We all know it as we were exposed to it by dubbie pseudo-science, but it is NOT true.

    Okay, here's three points;

    One: criminality.

    There has never, not ever, been a crime that was committed by someone using paranormal powers.

    This means either;

    • Criminals with paranormal powers don't even get detected, let alone caught
    • That people with paranormal powers are not criminal by nature
    • That paranormal powers don't exist
    • That paranormal powers exist, but at the end of the day are random, weak and unreliable to the extent it's easy to believe they don't exist

    Two: how.

    What makes is happen or makes people think it happens?

    • Undetectable entities interacting with human minds by means unknown?
    • Hidden abilities of the human mind we can't measure yet?
    • Imagination, dellusion, mental illness, egomania, wish-fulfilment?

    Three: observability

    There has never, ever, not once been an instance of precogniton being recorded in any remotely reliable or repeatable scientific matter, or a photograph et. al. of the paranormal that cannot be questioned, or of any remote manipulation or remote viewing being doen under controlled circumstances.

    It's just like there's not one decent photo or film of the Loch Ness monster, the Yeti or Sasquatch, or of any claimed UFO sighting. For some reason when these things happen, there's no decent evidence other than eye-witness accounts.

    ALL the evidence thus far is heresay, anecdotal. Why? Well maybe it's because;

    • These things don't really happen?
    • Because despite the massive number of blooper shows in the past twenty years caused by common ownership of home DV cameras, no one has ever managed to record anything paranormal as when ever something happens there is either no way of recording it, or the recording is of such a poor quality it isn't real evidence.
    • Because the paranormal makes photoemulsion and CCD's go all wonky?

    To me, as I have never had a paranormal experience, the thundering lack of closure and suspicous lack of evidence - considering how many people have some story or the other - seems very unlikely unless

    1. The paranormal is some quirky emergant characteristic developing in the human population that will never predominate as it is so vauge and useless it has no selection advantage,
    2. ... or unless it is a load of bollocks.

    The lack of documentary evidence and repeatable scientific verification doesn't lead me to any other conclusions. What do other people think? I would love to have other people's analysis of the facts... er, we the lack of facts and surfiet of claims

    I mean, considering new technology means that there are far more images being recorded every day than ever before, one would expect at some point someone who had a camera AND knew how to focus it or use NightShot would capture some decent footage of something paranormal, or would tape a prediction of someone's death or other event and leave it somewhere unimpeachable before the event transpires. Has it happened? Nope.

    Oh, I should say I feel mundane intuition and possibly a better ability to pick-up subvocalisation in some people than others, plus the other aspects I mentioned in my earlier post, might VERY normally and mundanely explain many so-called paranormal events.

    PS: Ross, in Julian May's "Galactic Milieu" books (where you'll encounter Abaddon, funnily enough), the Celts are one of the clines of humanity that start developing useful and usable mind-powers at the end of the 20th, start of the 21st Century. So you never know.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod, this is an interesting approach, but i'm not sure if it is always applicable.

    yes. true. Occam's Razor is not some magical tool that will determine the final truth of a matter. it should be used, however, as one tool in cases like this. there are more explanations to phenomenon than pure credulity. as abaddon points out:

    There has never, ever, not once been an instance of precogniton being recorded in any remotely reliable or repeatable scientific matter, or a photograph et. al. of the paranormal that cannot be questioned, or of any remote manipulation or remote viewing being doen under controlled circumstances.

    this leaves skeptics, and incredulous people in a position where they need to start somewhere, but have no where to start.

    the rule of parsimony has been shown to work. in cases where the real truth of a matter could not be determined, and they used parsimony, it (the conclusion via parsimony) has often been confirmed after the fact when better evidence and data has been forthcoming.

    i hope this helps someone out there who is tired of going with the first "eye witness" account that comes along, and is looking for an established method for determining some form of accuracy. it's NOT about "having all the answers" as arrogant 21st century humans. it's also not about waiting for some magical time in our future when all the answers will be available. it IS about starting now to determine how to explain this phenomena.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    LT,

    wow! you are over 10 000 posts already! cool.

    If you have a rational explanation, then by all means offer it. If not, what are you going to offer other than condescension?

    i didn't find jeffro's explanations condescending at all. he did a good job of being a skeptic. afterall, that is what this thread is calling for: "i need some skeptic input...".

    cheers,

    TS

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