Question for agnostics and/or atheists

by sonnyboy 58 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  Spook: Be excited by possibility.

  that's it! that's the secret!

  markfromcali: continue to be open.

  ...and again!

  ---

  it's funny, when i told my best ex-best friends that i was an atheist, right before i left, their reactions were:

  • friend 1: (silence)
  • friend 2: "well, if your pursuit is truth, i will see you back at the hall."
  • friend 3: "just continue to be open, honest and humble."

  friend 3, had the best response in my opinion. friend 1's response didn't help any body. friend 2 is just plain ignorant/arrogant. but even the response from friend 3 is half blind. of course he thinks i should be open and honest. but, how about him? does he apply the same to himself? how did i become an atheist if it wasn't by being open, honest and humble?
• 

  JAVA

  God-belief has been so instilled within me that it seems impossible to let it go completely.

  
  I think it's fair to say that most JWs and former-JWs have had the "God-belief" idea as part of their life for many years. It doesn't go away overnight, but it becomes weaker as one looks at religion and their holy books with eyes wide open. As already pointed out, if one says there is a god, and this is his writings, it's up to the one suggesting it to prove it. Most offer guilt and condemnation, without getting to the point of proof. Their loving deity will kill anyone not in agreement, and if god doesn't, they'll do the job--praise God.
  
  You're right, the "God-belief" is there for most of us exiting the Tower. Years of thinking "the sky is falling" can make one reach for the religious-hard hat just in case, but the god-construction site is built on dreams.
• 

  sonnyboy

  You're right, the "God-belief" is there for most of us exiting the Tower.

  I have to wonder if this is due to a fear of death. We've been led to believe that we're going to live forever, but now all of the sudden we're faced with the possibility that this life may be it. It's not a very happy thought.

  If I could take a magic pill that would stop me from aging, getting sick, or ever dying, I probably wouldn't even think about the possibility of God's existence.
• 

  garybuss

  do you still find yourself secretly believing in God?

  Nope!
• 

  JAVA

  if this is due to a fear of death.

  
  Fear is a powerful force, and can cause a person to act in ways they wouldn't normally act--or to have beliefs that are not normal. For example, "living forever" is a belief that's not normal outside the realm of sects like the Watchtower Society. True, many religions believe that when a person dies, they go off into never-never-land and sit around playing harps, but death is normal to most people and religions. It happens; every person who has ever lived has died, or will die. The Tower's total history has been one of lying about living forever without dying. The fact is, it's not true. All that believed that lie in the past are dead, and believing it today doesn't make it so.
  
  It's normal to fear death, which is a good reason to believe in life before death. :)
• 

  Carmel

  Agnosticism is a healthy place to be post JW. (IMHO) I spent nearly a dozen years as a professed agnostic. Not until I could flush out the concepts of materialistic fundamentalists (i.e. JW, et al) could I begin to accept the idea of a "god". Even now, my concept of God is virtually without limitation, as assigning any limits such as human qualities would be my own feeble projection of desired outcomes. Such an "unknowable essence" is beyond mine and your comprehension. No attempts to define will satisfy or suffice. All we will ever know of "Him" will be His reflection in His messengers. CARmel What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 31)
• 

  Narkissos

  Why make your mind about it? Why squeeze yourself into a box which might be too narrow for you, at least for the moment being?

  If I am asked whether I believe in God, I'd say no, which makes me an atheist for all social purposes.

  But that doesn't mean I don't believe; rather, I don't feel "God" is the right word for whatever I may believe.

  I don't believe in God but if I feel like praying I'll do pray. Don't know to whom of course. When I thought I knew I didn't either.

  Belief and prayer were part of mankind long before "God" and will survive him. They are still part of me even though I don't rationally agree with the idea of "God". For the lack of better words, I accept my rational side and I accept my religious side.

  Having been a JW cured me for life from the self-mutilating urge for consistency.
• 

  hooberus

  i think agnosticism is an honest position. some would say that it is basically just a PC version of weak atheism, but whatever, it's a neutral position. and it's a good place to start looking at the world from again, after long years of not being neutral and honest (as a dub). and your in good company: i always like to point out that, when cornered, carl sagan said he was an agnostic.
  
  
  

  
   

  which leads me to my point. self education (i'm not implying that your not!), is the best way, IMO, to get over the emotional god-belief side of your life. you don't have to go to school for it, but just read read read. anthropology, biology, cosmology, philosophy, logic, secular history, paleontology, secular archaeology. learning about us as a species, from a secular view point, will help you put into perspective where you fit on the continuum, and it's a small spot for us all! but, it also helps you put traditional deities in their place on the continuum too, which may do a lot to help you with this emotional aspect. to see them as creations of ancient desert tribe people, might help you to say: "wait a second. i'm a modern human. i am not going to be held emotionally hostage by some ancient tribe any more."

  
  
  
  not a neutral viewpoint, but is also (as non secular viewpoints can be) a philosophically based viewpoint. The secular viewpoint is an interpretation of biological, and archaeological facts, according to philosophical premises such as the "philosophical tenet" of methodological naturalism, uniformitarian timescales, and the a priori denial of consideration of divine intervention in Earths history.
• 

  stevenyc

  
  I'm an agnostic. I'll give you my reasons why:

  With the standard belief/faith in the clasical term of 'God'; it doesn't make any difference which one you choose. God, in the clasical way, was created by a bunch of tribes and nomads an increadably long time ago to explain why it rains, where the rain comes from, and what it means if it doesn't rain, and who's to blame. Different tribes developped different sets of rules, and the ones that worked sustained the tribes while the tribes that had the wrong rules eventually died out.

  It's very easy for me to see how by following certain 'rules' a tribe could prosper, and not understanding the relationship between say washing before eating and contracting nasty bacteria, one could easily see a start to the tribal elders 'knowing Gods on their side'. This started in a very small way but grew to very stong religious practices. And still does. From witch doctors in Hoduras, Voodoo in Haiti, and Demonized art work for the JDubs.

  The roots are very simple. Following rules that made the tribe survive became proof of Gods hand. And it still does.

  ALL religious practices and beliefs stemmed from this. ALL OF THEM, WITHOUT QUESTION.

  So this sounds like I'm an athiest.

  Well no. I can entertain the possibility that there are entities somewhere, that if visited us here would be Gods. By comparison. Maybe they'll never visit, but, they could still be there. Maybe they already did, and created life here as a paractle joke. Who knows?

  All I know is I'm not prepared to live my life like that. I'm not going to follow the rules of Mesolithic sheep heerders while deciding if I going to watch the simpsons or have sex with my camel.

  The morals and ethics that I've learnt from the society I grew up in seam to do me just fine. I can alter them slightly if I choose, however, I know history has brought us thus far with the basics of them.

  steve
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  and the a priori denial of consideration of divine intervention in Earths history.

  and of course this is completely natural. edit: sorry for the double post steve...