Will the WTS Org change or Die Out?

by doinmypart 56 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Elsewhere

  This is not entirely accurate. The reason they stopped selling the literature is because their attempt to affect the outcome in Jimmy Swaggart Ministries v. State Board of Equalization (by filing an amicus brief in that case) failed. Based on that ruling, the WT would be required to collect and pay sales tax on all sales of its literature. This would be extremely difficult due to the number of "publishers" and the need to train them regarding their responsibilities in this regard. Additionally, the tax filing requirements would be quite onerous for an undertaking of this level.
  
  The fact that someone is selling the WTS literature to the public does not, in any State that I am aware of, result in the conclusion that such individual is an "employee" for purposes of determining whether vicarious liability can be attributed to the Watchtower solely on the basis of that fact. However, this fact can be combined with other facts to make an argument, and then it's up to the courts.

  Well, the WTS would have two basic choices:

  1. Have each and every JW register their own charitable organizations and tax IDs. This will result in what you described, a logistics nightmare. It would also create a double tax. First the WTS will be taxed when it sold its literature to all of the individual JW charitable organizations and then all of the JW charitable organization would have to tax the people they resold the literature to. This would end up causing the price of the literature to be substantially higher than it is now (suggested donation amount).
  2. Hire all of the JWs as employees who will then sell the books for the WTS just as an employee at Barns and Nobel hires employees to sell books. This will result in the legal liability I described earlier. The WTS will do everything in its power to avoid this situation because it knows that it is currently dodging a very large number of lawsuits that would otherwise financially cripple it.
• 

  Spook

  A bit of wisdom from chaos theory: A complex social system can respond in three ways through the passage of time in an environment, all of them very applicable to meme theory.

  1. It adapts to the environment. (Much like other traditions became grandfathered into the early Christian groups.)

  2. It strengthens barriers between itself and the environment. (No association with nonbelievers.)

  3. It controls the environment to make it more habitable. (i.e. Dominionism)

  I predict a steady stream of #2 and #3 before finally succumbing to #1. JW's limit themselves in influencing the world, but have made impacts through the legal system to create and maintain a niche for themselve. If think a siege mentality will grow and break the organization further into a negative feedback loop. It will become an anachronism and continue to make small concessions. Legal pressure may force further splintering into local leadership. THAT would spell the end, but would probably just result in several smaller groups as offshoots. What I would like to see happen is (1) Abandonment of blood issue. Leave it up to individuals and provide no organizational stance. (2) Disfellowshipping has no required actions or shunning by members of the congregation. It is left open to individual members. (3) Leave association and recreation up to individuals. (4) Give up the end times mania. Heck, if they did all that, I'd go back even though I'm an atheist!
• 

  144001

  Elsewhere,
  
  With respect to option one, "double taxation" would not be a factor as the only sale that would be taxed is sales to end users, i.e., the poor souls who purchase this rubbish for their own purposes and not for resale. But this idea would be virtually impossible to execute due to the "logistical nightmare" it would entail.
  
  #2 would not be feasible for many reasons, not just the issue of legal liability. If they are employees, they must be paid at least minimum wage, and payroll taxes must be withheld and paid to the appropriate jurisdictions. Given the number of JWs, this would be quite difficult. A payroll processing company such as ADP would have to be involved, and the cost would dramatically decrease the "fund balance," a result that might cause a governing body person to shit up his pants. Then some poor bethelite would be required to clean up the mess, all in the name of Jehovah.
• 

  Elsewhere

  
• 

  metatron

  I think you raise some good points about legal responsibilities, Elsewhere.

  While contributions have declined, the Society can still make a bundle from selling off

  real estate. This is how they paid for their new presses and expansion in upstate NY.

  What no one seems to notice is that the Watchtower is rapidly dying as an ideology.

  They fill the magazines with platitudes and waste everyone's time with pointless meetings.

  You have to be an old timer to recall that, many years ago, the Ministry School and Service

  Meeting actually dealt with reality - something that isn't possible anymore because most

  of the "ministry" is just an illusion. The Society doesn't bother printing a real indepth

  Evolution book or react to evidence that 666 in Revelation might be 616.

  The whole religion has degenerated into mere habit and ritual. Beyond that, much

  of being a Witness is just obsessive compulsive behavior with no further motive behind

  it. Most Witnesses wouldn't know what to do with perfect health and eternal life, anyway.

  metatron
• 

  sean

  Firstly, let me say that this is a great site. Regarding the question, the WTS is like a dinosaur, and we all know how long they took to die out. As long as the elders have their brainwashed captive audience, it will remain. The worshippers have been encouraged to paint themselves into a corner-if the predictions for armageddon prove to be false yet again(as surely they will) they will simply move the goalposts, and the sheep will follow. The fear of death is a powerful tool,every witness I've ever met has either lost a loved one they hope to see again in the new world, or they are terrified of their own mortality and wish to live forever in the new world.
• 

  JT

  it all depends on what the wt decides to do,if there history is any indicator then they will be around for along time-

  look at the catholic church, they got 200yrs under their belt, if you merely described the catholic church to a person and never told them who it was they would be shocked-

  if you asked a person, could a religion stay around and attrack new converts after they had burned folks, killed folks, persucuted folks who didn't share their veiws, etc most folks would say, no way, yet after all the wild history of the church it is still around- the issue is religion fills a void in the lives of its followers and as long as man has a need/void in his life there will be a belief system standing there to fill it, esp religious beleif system-

  only religious beleif system invoke Divine favor of the gods, and for many folks that is good enough for them

  so i don;t see wt going anywhere, will it be the same of course not consider that if russell was here today, his own company would DF him for apostasy, smile
• 

  JT

  dorayakii

  this poster is correct in everything he says

  folks we all need to keep in my that wt is about writers who write fiction and any writer will tell you they can change the story anytime they want to

  does anyone recall when Bobby Ewring died on Dallas and came back

  yea follks were ticked off, but there were still folks who watched the program

  the poster demostrated clearly how the wt can change dogmas at anytime

  it has been decussed many times and even folks i have spoken to still at bethel have mentioned that it is clear that the wt is preparing the way to do away with the FDS as we know it today and replace it with a new definition of FDS to include NONANNOINTED

  and that is one dogma that clearly is on the way- the Given ones, the replacement of all gb with nonannointed officers, and as i was told personally the use of moses and joshua, elijah and elisha, paul and timothy will be used to represent the PASSing of the Torch and yes jw wll as GArybus says

  "KEEP on nodding in agreement"

  this will be what you all will see, i am willing to put money onthis, for i have talked to too many guys at bethel and just looking at the groundwork that has been layed for the last 15yrs to put this in place

  when the wt makes changes many times they do it real slow testing the wind to see how things go, this will be a major shift, but if anyone looks at the facts the ground work has been in place for years to make this major dogma shift

  justmy 2
• 

  JT

  but the core group, like my parents represent, was strengthened and they still obey directions from the Society and they are still believers. They saw the Society's failures as a test of THEMSELVES. They see their own obedience to the Society after the Society was unquestionably proved wrong, as proof of their virtue and their purity. They're proud they are still Witnesses.
  
  BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  and this is what many former jw fail to keep in mind as my man carl said:

  </I>

  The words of Carl Sagan are so True
• 

  JT

  </I>
  The words of Carl Sagan are so True

  <blockquote>
  Doctrines that make no predictions are less compelling than those which make correct
  predictions; they are in turn more successful than doctrines that make false predictions.

  But not always. One prominent American religion confidently predicted that the world would
  end in 1914. Well, 1914 has come and gone, and -- while the events of that year were certainly
  of some importance -- the world does not, at least so far as I can see, seem to have ended.
  There are at least three responses that an organized religion can make in the face of such a
  failed and fundamental prophecy. They could have said, "Oh, did we say '1914'? So sorry, we
  meant '2014'.

  A slight error in calculation. Hope you weren't inconvenienced in any way."
  But they did not. They could have said, "Well, the world *would* have ended, except we prayed
  very hard and interceded with God and He spared the Earth." Instead, they did something much
  more ingenious. They announced that the world *had* in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of
  us hadn't noticed, that was our lookout.

  It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents
  at all. But religions are tough. Either they make no contentions which are subject to disproof
  or they quickly redesign doctrine after disproof.

  The fact that religions can be so shamelessly
  dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish does not
  speak very well for the tough-mindedness of the believers. But it does indicate, if a
  demonstration were needed, that near the core of the religious experience is something
  remarkably resistant to rational inquiry.

  — quote from "Broca's Brain" by Carl Sagan, p. 332, twelfth edition