The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @finkel

    the Quran doesn't anywhere sanction offensive violence toward non believers. And it does condemn to hell those who do so. The verse you quoted was not direction to the people through Muhammed. It specifically says," When the lord revealed TO THE ANGELS" this is not direction to mankind to do anything. 

    also it's in a sura that is talking about the Meccans. I've explained earlier the Meccans were the ones initiating confrontation with the Muslims. This verse is specifically regarding a people who had INITIATED battle with the Muslims. They were never anywhere directed to seek out violence with them.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Your probably right JD but the Islamic extremists like ISIL read that as a supportive directive from divine provenance since its written in the Quran and therefore use that in their fear inducing acts of terrorism.  

  • cofty
    cofty
     The Quran and what it says is a separate issue from Muslims and what they believe

    Wow

    The absolute authority of the quran is fundamental to Islam. 

    Even if there was no ISIS and no violence against non-muslims every Conservative Muslim treats women like second class citizens. By Conservative I am talking about millions and millions - tens or hundreds of millions of muslims. The quran instructs men to hit their disobedient wives.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

     The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

    By the way doesn't the title to this particular thread topic contain an ironic and somewhat satirical oxymoron of an statement ?  

  • cofty
    cofty
    the Quran doesn't anywhere sanction offensive violence toward non believers

    We have not read the same book.

    Mo's message could be distilled as "convert or die".

    ...

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @Cofty

    Quran 3:195, "Their lord has answered them: 'I will not allow the deeds of any one of you to be lost, WHETHER YOU ARE MALE OR FEMALE, each is like the other [in rewards]." This verse stresses equality between men and women.

    Again, the way women are treated in many Islamic areas of the world is not based on the Quran. The Quran stressed gender equality,

    http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/equality.html


  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    I've explained earlier the Meccans were the ones initiating confrontation with the Muslims - this may be so, but in a sense it doesn't matter - extremist Meccan polytheists aren't causing trouble today, extremist muslims are.

    What also matters is the Quran, like the Bible, has lots of violent verses. Christianity, with the odd exceptions of lunatic cults like the WTS, has largely reformed. Islam is yet to have a meaningful reformation. There is also no united, central body of clerics. The diverse range of Islamic interpretation is a huge issue considering the violent Quranic verses that can be taken literally. Although most muslims are peaceful and have Islamic interpretations fit for the 21st century, others do not.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Let it be accepted that Islamic extremists behead people because they have subjectively interpreted certain scriptural words in the Quran to their own supportive intent and behavior.

    Children of these extremists (ISIL) have recently been trained and encouraged to behead people who are deemed opposition to ISIL.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @cofty

    regarding your second post, which I didn't see until mine posted - sorry:

    its a matter of not taking the context into account. The Quran, like the Bible, stresses that any who do not accept gods messengers (I.e., Moses, Jesus, Muhammed), and turn to God will likely die, unless God shows them mercy. But it is nowhere proscribed for the Muslims to take action against anyone. They are only to defend themselves when attacked, but stop of they assailants stop and be forgiving (see previous post). All judgement, as in the bible, is left up to God. They are forbidden from violence except in defending themselves. It is these latter verses, which are clear in their meaning, that are twisted by radical Islam as well as guys who misunderstand like that one, to mean offensive violence. 

    the social and cultural context of the Quran must be considered, and in all the verses where defending oneself against assailants is sanctioned it is specifically referring to a certain people at that time on particular. It was not a sanction for on going violence against people who attacked you 100 or 1000 years ago, it was saying that IN THE INSTANCE OF ATTACK, you may defend yourself. But, as the previous verse I quoted clearly shows, if the attacker stopped they were to cease all hostilities and be merciful as God is merciful. 

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Quran 3:195.

    Not enough. Too vague for a general application. You are not allowing us to even see the context. I feel like I am reading Christians selectively and narrowly interpreting out of context verses from the Bible to justify their preconceived ideas. 

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