by 9thWonder 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I teach bout em in my secret hidin place. You wantin ta learn?Gumby
Is that the one at your old church? The one with the hot pink and leopard skin fur beanbag chairs? The one where you burned gonesh sandalwood incense and played Jimi Hendrix real loud? Or was The Byrds Greatest hits?
I still own that old church and I'm gonna open it's doors again. My damn concubines was cheatin on me I found out, and so I suffered some emotional abuse. I'm recoverin though with the lords help.
Gumby
After kicking this around in my head for awhile, I'm starting to see the point of Col 1:15, I think.
Col 1:15 expresses the relationship of Jesus to "all creation", not the relationship of Jesus to God. This is why Jesus is called the "firstborn of all creation", not the "firstborn of God". As Leolaia mentioned, the REASON he is the "firstborn of all creation" follows that statement: because he created it, he's before it, he's the head of the body, he is first in all things, he's the firstborn from the dead, and in all he has preeminence. Thus, it makes the most sense that Paul meant to say that Christ was the preeminent one among it. It makes no sense for him to describe his pre-eminence in order to show why he was "first created". I think the bigger question is whether or not "of all creation" is necessarily inclusive of Christ or not. I finally see Leo's point about the WTS switching back and forth between Christ being included in "all creation" and being excluded from "all creation" in rapid succession. From what I can see from various resources, it is not a necessary condition of the greek grammar to include Christ among creation from this statement. Here's a post on that question from a greek language board: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1996-10/15123.html
I'm rambling, but hope this helps.
On the other hand, the word translated "of" in "firstborn of all creation" does not necessarily mean that the "firstborn" is part of "all creation" (partitive genitive); it also can mean that the "firstborn" is over "all creation", that he is supreme over it (genitive of subordination). This fits the context much better: Jesus is supreme OVER all creation because (1) he created all things, (2) all things exist because of him, whether invisible or visible, whether having authority or not, (3) he is before all things, (4) he reconciles all things through him (v. 20).
In my thinking, the use of "firstborn" refers more to his position of authority, the rights of inheritance, and being an heir to the throne in the case of royalty. Remember what the father told his oldest son in the parable of the prodigal (Luke 15): "Everything I have is yours" (v. 31). We know from what happened with Jacob and Esau that the rights don't necessarily belong to the one who is chronologically first.
Is Jesus Really God? In the New Testament we are told that Jesus created and formed all things, ... Calling Jesus the "Son of God" does not mean that He is a created human, ... www.layhands.com/IsJesusReallyGod.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Questions and Answers This series of articles contains studies on various topics, many of which were adapted from questions that I have received from people by e-mail. If you have questions, comments, objections, etc., on anything concerning Christianity, please feel free to send them to me at [email protected], and I will reply by e-mail. As time permits and as the Lord leads, I might turn my reply into an article and then add it to my "Questions and Answers" series, so please check my home page periodically for the latest updates. Question: "I have a friend whom I've been talking to about Christ. His background is Jehovah's Witness and he's having a little trouble grasping that Jesus is God. The New Testament refers to Him constantly as "The Son of God." He is also referred to as "The Firstborn" which makes it sound like He was created. I have shown my friend John 1:1-18 and Philippians 2:5-11 but this doesn't seem to be enough. Can you help?" Answer: The Jehovah's Witnesses are correct in claiming that there is only one God, as Jesus says in Mark 12:29 (quoting Deuteronomy 6:4): "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." However, they deny that Jesus is the Jehovah God of the Old Testament. This is sad, because Jesus is the only way for us to be saved and have eternal life, as we are told in Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Let's look at some Old Testament passages which refer to Jehovah and compare them to New Testament passages which refer to Jesus, and we will see that Jesus is Jehovah God. Notice what Isaiah says about Jehovah: "But now, this is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine."" (Isaiah 43:1) "For I am the LORD [Jehovah], your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior" (Isaiah 43:3) "[the LORD (Jehovah) is speaking] everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." (Isaiah 43:7) "I, even I, am the LORD [Jehovah], and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed-- I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD [Jehovah], "that I am God."" (Isaiah 43:11-12) "This is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel" (Isaiah 43:14) "I am the LORD [Jehovah], your Holy One, Israel's Creator, your King." (Isaiah 43:15) We can see from these Old Testament passages that the LORD (Jehovah) "created," "formed," "redeemed," is the "Savior," is the "Holy One," and is the "King." In the New Testament we are told that Jesus created and formed all things, that Jesus is the Savior, that Jesus is the Holy One, and that Jesus is the King: "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus, as the end of this quote proves], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him [the Word, Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ... The Word [Jesus] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-3, 14) "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16) "Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord." (Luke 2:11) "From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised." (Acts 13:23) "Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-- the Holy One of God!"" (Mark 1:23-24) ""How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."" (Luke 1:34-35) "Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."" (John 6:68-69) "The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna! " "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!"" (John 12:12-13) "Then the King [Jesus] will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.'" (Matthew 25:34) So therefore Jesus is the Lord God (Jehovah). Now let's compare Isaiah 44:6 with Revelation 22:12-13: "This is what the LORD [Jehovah] says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6) "Behold, I [Jesus] am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Revelation 22:12-13) In the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah quoted Jehovah as saying that He (Jehovah) is "the first and the last." In the New Testament, Jesus says that He (Jesus) is "the First and the Last." Jesus is Jehovah God. Now let's compare Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3: "A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD [Jehovah]; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."" (Isaiah 40:3) "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"" (Matthew 3:1-3) In the Old Testament, Isaiah prophesied about someone calling out to prepare the way for Jehovah God. In the New Testament, Matthew tells us that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy. John the Baptist told people to prepare the way for Jesus, and therefore Jesus is Jehovah God. It is clear that Jesus is the Lord God (Jehovah). This may be a difficult concept for us to comprehend, but as God says: "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9). The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is God, as the following passages prove: "I [Jesus] and the Father are one." (John 10:30) "[After Jesus died and was resurrected] Then he [Jesus] said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"" (John 20:27-28) "I [Jesus] have given them the glory that you [the Father] gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) "Theirs [the people of Israel] are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." (Romans 9:5) "But about the Son [Jesus] he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."" (Hebrews 1:8) "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours" (2 Peter 1:1) "the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) [New King James Version] "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20) We can see that Jesus is Jehovah God. In Colossians 1:15, Jesus is called the "firstborn over all creation," but notice what it says right after that: "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16) So Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, but He Himself was not created because He is the one who created all things! The New World Translation (which the Jehovah's Witnesses use) adds the word "other" in this passage, as if Jesus created all "other" things after He Himself was created. However, the word "other" is not in this passage in the Greek manuscripts, and therefore it is incorrect. You can prove this for yourself by going to any library and finding any Greek/English interlinear Bible, which shows the Greek and English translations side-by-side. Notice that John 17:5 tells us that Jesus existed before the world began: "And now, Father, glorify me [Jesus] in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5) Calling Jesus the "Son of God" does not mean that He is a created human, because the first humans were Adam and Eve (for proof, I invite you to see my article called The Biblical Evidence Against the Theory of Evolution). Humans and angels are created beings, but Jesus was "begotten" (born) of God. He is unique because He is 100% God and 100% man. His human nature was born of Mary, but His divine nature has existed since before time. When the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Jesus it is because they have been led astray. Take a look at what the apostle John has to say about this: "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us--even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray." (1 John 2:22-26) Conclusion Jesus is not a created being like we are, He is the only begotten Son of God. He is one with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only way for us to be saved and have eternal life, as we are told in Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Holy spirit was - I am drinking some now - it is called Glenmorangie and it has been aged 15 years as a single malt in Missouri Lake of the Ozarks Oak Barrels
Really who knows what is the truth about this topic? First of all, its all based upon a book that many believe to be from God. Yet the scholars all have conflicting views and interpretations on the identity of Jesus, why?
Its fruitless to debate this subject that causes so many conflicting views. For those who have beliefs that is enough for them. For those who want more proof , its just not coming. Believe what you will and stop debating a subject that has been through the wringer for centuries.
God and or Jesus are not talking for over 2,000 years. When your dead you will know what is what or nothing. There are always two camps on discussions of this nature. I don't side with either one, why, because I know that I don't know, and I will have to wait and see.
Was Jesus created or not, it does not matter in the here and now. Unless you have had a personal experience, which no one can dispute with you because its your personal experience and no one elses.
Thomas who was a close friend of Jesus, according to the book, Would not believe he came back from the dead unless he saw him for himself. Jesus did not punish him for his disbelief, but, rewarded him with a personal appearance, again according to the book.
Maybe it will happen to you, maybe not.
Blueblades
