Was Jesus Created?

by 9thWonder 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  gumby

  All I know is.....if Jesus id God.......He ain't much of a wrestler.......cuz Jacob kicked his arse and Jacob was ascared of Esau......so I KNOW Esau coulda whooped Jehovah. Dang wussies!

  Gumby
• 

  hmike

  Inquirer,

  You seem to put a lot of stock in the inferiority of Jesus based on his title Son of God. I'd like to separate references to the man, Jesus of Nazareth, and the Word (logos) who was one with the Father in the beginning, and who lived among people in the man Jesus. When people ask, "Was Jesus Created?" of course, they are referring to the Word, perhaps the messenger of the YHWH, the memra of YHWH, or what the WT teaches was the Archangel Michael. According to the NT books, Jesus of Nazareth, the man, was born in human fashion to Mary. So Jesus had a definite beginning in history if we take the gospel accounts to be historical books.

  Remember, from the gospel books of Matthew and Luke, we are told that the child, Jesus, was conceived in Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, Son of God has a lot of meaning in it, but this is where it starts--at the conception, or birth, if you prefer. Jesus of Nazareth, the walking, breathing, physical man was conceived without Joseph or any other natural father, but from God Almighty, so that is why Jesus is called the Son of God. No pre-incarnate manifestation of the Word is referred to as the unique Son of God. There are only prophecies looking ahead to one whom God would call his Son. The Bible does not address how the Word came to be, other than to say he was with God in the beginning, so we cannot speak of the Word as being created, or even born in any sense.

  Jesus of Nazareth, on the other hand, was not only born physically, but was subject to all kinds of limitations that came with having a human physical body. Some of these he could overcome by taking command of natural forces, but remember, the gospels speak of him getting his power and insight from the Holy Spirit, even after his resurrection. For the most part, he lived as a kind of super-prophet. Nevertheless, the Word, the one who was God and with God in the beginning, was in Jesus, perhaps as his own spirit, and that is how we see fit to refer to Jesus as God. That title is completely appropriate even though he is forever bound with certain limitations because of the human--albeit glorified--body.

  So there's no problem with Jesus saying that the Father was greater than him, nor with the Almighty being the "God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ."
• 

  gumby

  Jesus of Nazareth, the walking, breathing, physical man was conceived without Joseph

  So....Joseph had absolutely no blood ties with Jesus.....yet Matthew Chapter 1: 1-17 goes to great lengths in connecting Jesus to Abraham by giving a geneology from Abraham to Joseph.

  I wonder why? What connection does Jesus have with Abrahams blood as far as Joseph is concerned? If there is no connection, why was it recorded and put in the canon?

  Gumby
• 

  siegswife

  Ok, here I go.

  IMO the concept that's expressed in the trinity doctrine is closer to the truth than the "Jesus is a created being" idea.

  The way I understand it begins with the realization that "The Word of God" is the "Word" that God uses to express His "Being". It isn't the bible or any other holy book, it is the word that God uses to express the thought of "I AM". From that point, I've come to the conclusion that -even though a "word" by it's nature is subject to the author - the "Word" that is the perfect expression of "God's Being" would by virtue of the Spirit of that same Being be the same as that Being. Accckk...how can I say this more clearly?

  The Word that exists to express what God IS would have to BE what God IS in order to complete it's purpose of expressing the Being of God. The thought being expressed is what God "IS". God's expression of the thought "I AM" would contain everything that God is and since God's Being is eternal so is the Word that reflects that Being.

  In other words, the Word of God (ie. His expression of Self - not the Bible) is everything that God "IS". If not, than the Word would be an imperfect expression of God.

  Words seem to be inadequate to try to explain something like this, but the trinity doctrine is an attempt to do that. It's trying to explain why Christ has to be God, and He does have to BE God because He IS the Word of God's Being.

  Lea 
• 

  Kenneson

  Inquirer,

  I'm only looking at this thread again now, so I'm a bit late in responding to your point that Jesus called no one good, but God. By that remark, he certainly wasn't saying that he was bad. After all, in another passage Jesus calls Himself "the good shepherd." See John 10:11, 14 My viewpoint is that Jesus is asking that ruler "Why do you call me good if you don't believe I'm God?" He is not denying his divinity at all.
• 

  JCanon

  “If only some ancient unknown apostolic letter was discovered that would clarify the issue one way or other or if we could travel back in time and ask all the apostles to clarify the issue. Was there a time when the Firstborn Son did not exist? Is he inferior to the Father?”

  I can't believe some of these comments.

  There is no getting around that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, he has an "archangel's voice" (1 Thes. 4) and is called a "son" of God. How convenient all of a sudden "son" means somthing else when applied to Jesus. I don't think so.

  It's very simple. Jesus is God's SON, therefore he was created. End of story. God calls the other angels "sons", they were created. No issue.

  When Christ returned after his sacrifice, he was given a "higher position" than he had before. Hello? I thought he was equal to God and God himself? I guess not?

  Maybe this was Jesus "created" or not really not a doctrinal issue but an I.Q. issue. Hmmm....
• 

  gumby

  ....yeah, but 1st. John tells us that without him, not one thing that was created, was created without him.

  I gave up a long time ago tryin to figure out who he was...god or son. He never told me and he fibbed as said he'd give you any thing you asked for in his name. I don't trust the shister

  Gumono
• 

  LittleToe

  For all that orthodox Christianity might rail against the likes of James and Trevor, all they are expressing is the next logical evolutionary step from the belief that God is "one" and omnipresent, God is Triune, Christ is mystically united to his "body", this "body" is being conformed to the image of the Son (see Rom.8:29; Gen.1:26,27), all creation being united in him, by him and for him (see Col.1:15-20).

  I'm gonna ignore JCAnon's comments on two counts - first being that I've already addressed the logical fallasy that he raises, and secondly because he still believes he's Jesus Christ incarnate and hence must be talking in the third person.

  Gumby:
  You asked the wrong person. It's the Holy Spirit that enlightens the mind
• 

  gumby

  Gumby:
  
  You asked the wrong person. It's the Holy Spirit that enlightens the mind

  Now LT......doncha think Jesus coulda at least told the holy spirit that Gumby was askin the wrong guy ? The bible says god knows what we need BEFORE we ask it......so where's the problem. He gonna get me on a technacallity is he?

  Gumby
• 

  Kenneson

  JCanon,

  1 Thess. 4 Jesus has an archangel's voice, but your forgot God's trumpet.

  Jesus is not just a son of God. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which puts Him into another category altogether. (John 1:14) If begotten means created, how was Jesus the ONLY created son? You already stated that the other sons (angels) were created (which would make them begotten by your definition). This would hardly make Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

  Father and Son merely distinguishes the two Persons. My father and I are distinct persons, but we belong in the same genus (human family). Jesus and His Father are in the same genus (God family). But if He was made (created) like the angels, how would He be in the same genus as His Father? Jesus is by nature God; all the other sons are not. The universe was also created, but it is not in the God family, is it?

  While Jesus was equal to God in nature (Phil. 2:6), it is His human nature that received exalted status in verse 9. Whereas before His resurrection in His humanity Jesus was lower than the angels (Heb. 2:7), in His resurrected human state He is superior to them. (Heb. 1:4-9) Angels don't receive worship. Jesus does.