Was Jesus Created? (page 4)

Kenneson

"The Father is greater than I." Yes, the position of the Father is greater than the Son. The Son is subject to the Father. But let me ask you one thing. Does not the Bible also say that the woman is subject to her husband? Yes, the husband's position is greater. But in regards to their humanity (their nature) they are equally human. Because his position is greater doesn't mean she is somehow sub-human. Likewise, the Father's position is greater, but they both have the same God-nature. It is in this aspect that they are equal. Jehovah's Witnesses recognize the subordination of Jesus in Scripture, but they fail to grasp their equality in nature.

How could Prov. 8 be telling us that wisdom was created? It shows rather that it was begotten (not made) and was there when creation occurred. Can you imagine anytime that God was lacking in wisdom? If Prov. 8 is to be understood in the way Jehovah's Witnesses explain it, that is exactly what they are saying: There was a time when God had no wisdom. But, in order to equate Christ with wisdom, they have to make wisdom (Christ) created. I don't buy it.

SixofNine

"Was Jesus created?"

lol, yes, it seems the best guess is that "Jesus" is a complete fabrication ;-)

Kenneson

Inquirer,

The Old Testament is centered on Jehovah. The New Testament is centered upon Jesus: his works, miracles, and life. His followers are named for him: CHRISTians. They do miracles in Jesus' name, cast out demons in Jesus' name, teach and preach in Jesus' name; there is salvation in no other name but Jesus, Jesus has the name that is above every other name and get this: CHRISTians are witnesses of Jesus. (Acts 1:8) To honor Jesus is to honor Jehovah. (John 5:23) You can't have the Father without the Son and you can't have the Son without the Father. (John 6:44 and 16:6). They are equally important.

Kenneson

Six,

Yes, he was "created" first by Arius and later promulgated as such by Jehovah's Witnesses. And that is indeed a fabrication.

inquirer

Littletoe said:

Inquirer:

Let me be very clear about this; I believe you to be wrong!

The Son is indeed a son, not a sibling, and I don't see where anyone said otherwise. Jesus did indeed say that the Father was greater than him, but none of this pertains to being "created". Did you physically "create" your child? Do the languages used even allow for this kind of translation?

Please elaborate on how you make the jump to the conclusion of him being created, from the available evidence.

___

Inquirer -- I think you will get disappointed with my answer. But since you asked. I always try to reply everybody. I try to reply you as well, because I have noticed that we have debated before in a respectful way. :)

Ok, I am going to say something "stupid." I know you will say "errrrr, that guy from Australia is a jerk," but I'll say it anyway.

Because Jesus is called the Son of God, this applies inferiority to the Father. It implies that he came along at a later date. In Matthew 28 it says it in this order "the father, the son and the holy spirit." The father is the most important, the son is second important, and the holy spirit is "God's electricity" if you like, which is just additional to his glory.

Notice how the then apostle Judas... is mentioned last? He is the least important! I am not saying though that the order of the disciples is in order from the one Jesus liked the most to the least (in a respectful way of course!) But it seems to me that Judas was mentioned last because of his betrayal.

LittleToe

Inquirer:S'ok, I don't need the JW stock answer, as I was an Elder for long enough. And for the record, I don't think you're a jerk - you seem an ok guy

You've still not explained to me how you make the leap to "created being", though.

inquirer

Kenneson,

Well, it's all different when your a unitarian like me.

Yeah! They are both important. I always pray through Jesus name (I apologize if I sound like a JW -- but that is something that I agree with them on!)

In worship, in prayer, we (well, I really) acknowledge both of them. But Jesus also said that the father is greater than I, he had a go at someone for saying (paraphrase) "Why are you calling me good, only Jehovah is."

Sorry, if I repeat myself. Just trying to reply everyone, you know. I just wish there were more unitarians like me. People usually send me a message at times like this... I wish someone would now.

(Probably won't. :( )

LittleToe

9th:Glad to be of a little assistance.

Regarding the "inferiority" thing, I suggest you read all relevant verses in context, and see what is said, not said, and implied. It's not for me to tell you what to believe - you must draw your own conclusions.

John 14 is often seen as pivotal in this kind of debate (I love that gospel). I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the chapter, after reading the whole of it.

PaulJ

In my view when the Bible says something about the nature of Jesus it should be taken literally, if he is a son and a first born of all creation and the Father is Greater than him, he is just that, there is no reason to try to see deep mystical and unusual meanings in these verses. I don't think the Scriptures are playing mind games with us.

I agree with greendawn. At the end of the day people can go thru the bible with a fine tooth comb and translate it and understand it as much as they want.

But- there are so many arguments saying the bible isnt true- so how can this be used as evidence. In all honesty, unless something is found- book, manuscript etc that beyond all doubt signifies what Jesus was/is- there will always be arguments for an against.

inquirer

LittleToe,

:( Do you mind? I am answering out of my heart. It's not a JW stock answer. Sheesh, I already apologized for sounding like a JW in a post on this page before... :(

Well because his the son, God (1 in 1, not 3 in 1) would have created him. It's just logic, is my answer. He would have just gone "wheeesh!" And there is Jesus (sorry, lol.) He is created! :) That's all I meant.

Was Jesus Created?

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