Are You For or Against Abortion? (page 13)

Spook

For anyone with a supposed biblical objection to abortion, I refer you to the masterful essay as follows:

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/political/Bible.html

There is no solid basis to oppose abortion in the bible. If you are going to deny that, read the article and provide a well reasoned rejoinder.

My desired stance is as follows:

1. Once a fetus is viable for development outside the womb and apart from the mother, it is a being.

2. Medical science alone determines when the above is the case.

3. Before such a point, abortion is available on demand. After such a point, the available option is removal of the fetus.

4. This would be trumped by a health concern for the mother. The concurrance of medical science and the opinion of the mother would decide what to do in this case.

5. Those who don't like this arrangement can be encouraged to spend their energy on sexual education (not abstinance only, mind you), adoption, and investing in medical research on the issue, rather than parading haunting images about which represent a tiny fraction of actual abortions.

Spook

"The essence of civilization is that the strong have a duty to protect the weak. In cases where there are serious doubts and questions, the presumption should be in the favor of life."

One of the greatest hypocrisies the Bush has ever uttered.

zagor

It really spooks me that so many people would use any argument just to justify terminating child’s life. This is way beyond whether bible or any other “holy” book approves of it. It is just plain wrong in a same way a murder is. You don’t have to have bible to tell you that mate. Not long ago there way an incident on telly where apparently mother has not only abandoned her newborn baby but threw her into sewage. There was a public outcry. The fact is, had she just aborted that baby a month or two earlier no one would have seen anything wrong with it. Never mind that premature babies can survive if born even earlier than that. And if these images are haunting then they should be. We so often get into depths of philosophizing about the issue without stopping to see what really is at stake here. These images are not “tiny percentage” every child looks like that. And if you are wondering what aborted child looks like I'd suggest you to go to nearby hospital and watch the procedure and see what it looks like and where her tiny body ends. This kind of argument makes me vomit.

EvilForce

"A man who takes it upon himself to prescribe how others should dispose of their own lives - and who seeks to condemn them by law, i.e., by force, to the drudgery of an unchosen, lifelong servitude (which, more often than not, is beyond their economic means or capacity) - such a man has no right to pose as a defender of rights. A man with so little concern or respect for the rights of the individual, cannot and will not be a champion of freedom or of capitalism."

Ayn Rand quote on abortion

zagor

"A man who takes it upon himself to prescribe how others should dispose of their own lives - and who seeks to condemn them by law, i.e., by force, to the drudgery of an unchosen, lifelong servitude (which, more often than not, is beyond their economic means or capacity) - such a man has no right to pose as a defender of rights. A man with so little concern or respect for the rights of the individual, cannot and will not be a champion of freedom or of capitalism."

This is a typical oxymorn statement, I love Ayn Rand but in this case she is just plain wrong. Being a doctor as you say you are you know full well that mother is not desposing of her own life but of life of her baby. And I would seriously wonder who has little concern or respect for the rights of the individaul in this case whether one who is terminating someone's life or one who tries to protect it.

EvilForce

Zagor I can appreciate your passionate beliefs....however to be quite candid....as a male you will never have to face this decision ultimately. From perusing this thread most all of the uber anti-abortion folks seem to be men.
As I have said I would like to see other options rather than abortion, but will not force my opinion on others. The world is not quite so black and white, but rather many shades of grey. I would bet that 90% or more of abortions are given long, heartfelt, prayerful consideration by the women involved. Who am I to judge them of their spiritual and ethical concerns?

zagor

Zagor I can appreciate your passionate beliefs....however to be quite candid....as a male you will never have to face this decision ultimately. From perusing this thread most all of the uber anti-abortion folks seem to be men.

As I have said I would like to see other options rather than abortion, but will not force my opinion on others. The world is not quite so black and white, but rather many shades of grey. I would bet that 90% or more of abortions are given long, heartfelt, prayerful consideration by the women envolved. Who am I to judge them of their spiritual and ethical concerns?

EF,
I agree with you to an extent. (Particularly about not judging people) Though studies here show that in many instances abortion has become”contraception" of choice here. Not sure what it is like in States though.

There was also a program on TV recently that spoke of how many of young female students that come here from Asia quickly opt for abortion to conceal pregnancy. And it is not only them; many career women do the same so we are not only talking about teenagers who didn’t know better.
I could not impose my view on someone even if I tried so this is beyond the point, what I do believe though is that people need to be educated of what is at stake before they do it. I’ve hard many stories about women now suffering deep depression and suicidal feeling once they realize they’ve just ended a life of their own child. It doesn’t happen in every case admittedly but I would wonder if they had to make same decision that they would do the same.
This is not really a religious issue as some are trying to present it but true human issue about what it means to be a human. An issue that separates us from animals who don't care. (Though that would be debatable too I know). And as such deserves to be discussed and not pushed under the rug of us not wanting to be judgemental. How is it that one is judgemental if he tells the facts?

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2724

Big Dog

If we men truly have no say in the final decision as to whether to abort or not, I would say that paternity suits and the ensuing support should go by the wayside as well.

bisous

Big Dog:

Men ultimately have the first say. Don't do the deed at all. Actually that is the only point you will have a say, and it is the absolute control point.

I taught my son (22 now), that the only time he will have a say in the matter is at the most important time. He can control whether or not conception takes place. It is very simple. After that, it is a woman's choice to control her own body. Like it or not.

And frankly I believe that is the only way it should be. All of you fellas should just stay the hell away from trying to tell any of us what we can or cannot do with our bodies or anything happening within it.

Mini, I believe you've put up this thread before. sigh. but my answer is I am for every woman's absolute right for dominion over her body. Period.

Big Dog

Also, I keep hearing people saying they don't want to force their views on others which is noble on its face but just about every law we have is in essence the will of the group being forced on the masses. That's how it typically works in the US, we look at public policy, the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.

Also as has been pointed out, the bulk of the abortions are not these extreme situations, rape, incest, danger to the mother, etc., it is simply being used as reactive method of birth control. I'll say it again, what is at issue here is when do we think a life with worth protecting, at what point does that life deserve the same protections we enjoy.

Are You For or Against Abortion?

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