by minimus 152 Replies latest jw friends
classicist,
Now can you prove that scientifically, tetra, or are we dealing with unfalsifiable statements again?
he he
if it's unfalsifiable, then it's unscientific. so why would i have to prove that scientifically?
why don't we start with the fewest assumtions, and work on observation for there?
there is no evidence for the soul. fine. it's even unfalsifiable! fine. so tell me why we should go and assume that there is a soul? hmm? because the bible said so? whoops! theres god again!
OH! That sort of reasoning really gets on my goat (your lucky I otherwise like you;)! A little more shared responsibility among the genders would go a long way to reducing the statistics that cause us to engage in these debates in the first place.
LOL! i'm sorry frog. i didn't mean to imply that it's the woman's sole problem because it's her body. i certainly could have worded that better.
i mean that although i can have (and do) an opinion on the matter, and i would most certainly voice that opinion, and talk about certain facts with the woman etc., in the end, it's her choice. i can't force her either way, as i'm sure you'd agree. i would really try my hardest to help her see my side, and present the facts as best i could. and i'd hope she would see my "choice" clearly. and see that i'd be there for her no matter what. the man is really 50% of the equation up until this point, isn't he? in the end though...it's her call.
(now please let your goat go back to it's pasture)
TS
The goat is satisfied, hehe <- (even though this is a sheepy:)
SIXOFNINE
I see what you mean, but for me the border is too fuzzy. As I said a just-born babie (though technically "breathing") is not a much more conscious human being than a fetus. And what if it's neither conscious nor loved? Does that give us the right to get rid of it? Thank you your remarks though.
Brenda,
I still cannot speak for another person. There are plenty of medically recommended/necessity abortions as opposed to birth-control-by-abortion, and I would never presume to get in between a woman and her doctor with moral legislation.
Thank you for your comment. I am not speaking for anyone else. More like trying to imagine what I'd like to happen if my partner had to consider abortion. That's why I said I'm against abortion as it happens in many cases, but I don't think banning it legally is a good idea.
Evesapple
I wrote:
I disagree. If you have a well-thought out opinion, then it does matter. If people stop voicing their opinions then our choice of ideaology will depend on chance (like what our parents told us to believe, etc.).
You replied:
No Mr. Pole,Abortion is a personal choice and no one has any right to judge another according their choice, the only one that has that right his God himself, and none of us are in the position to judge another. what would it matter to you if I were for or against it...it serves no purpose but to simply raise an arguement. If judgemental is what you choose to be then you are no different than where you came from in being a JW....if there is anything I've learned in the past decade is to never judge another, ever....I spent a lot of wasted time with judgemental people and never again will I be that again.
That's a pretty pathetic reply which I can only describe as "barking-up the wrong tree". I wrote a nice post about the purposefulness of voicing opinions and you replied by putting a word with the stem judge in every single sentence. Then you suggested, since I'm so judgmental, I'm still like a Jehovah's Witness. How silly of you, "sweety" (your term). I suggest that you re-read my post and re-phrase your reply. I am really not such an idiot as you seem to suggest.
It was also interesting to read your reply to classicist:
oh sweetie...you have so much to learn........good luck to you dear.
it means I can't explain to you something that has to be learned and experienced....that's all...and if I tried, you'd still never get it, perhaps it's your age, but that's ok, because I thought I had all the answers back then....I never realized how very ignorant I really was. I guess in many ways you remind me of 'me'....so good luck on your journey to life's many questions and finding your very own answers.
How is this "sweety" supposed to learn the deep truths that you have acquired if you refuse to debate them with you? And then you said "in many ways you remind me of 'me'" after reading his two or three posts, which is just another condescending remark. But it does fit into your motto of avoiding debates, I must admit.
"Good luck on your journey" anyway.
sixsixsixtynine,
Leftist: pro-abortion against death penalty, right wing: against abortion, for death penalty.
Have you ever heard someone describe themselves as "pro-abortion"?
Word games. Language is full of simplifications which are resented by many people for reasons related with political correctness. Hence you have "crippled - disabled - differently abled - physically challenged". What counts ultimately is the intended meaning and I can assure you I had no intention of abusing the term.
To give you an example: have you ever heard someone describing themselves as pro-death penalty?
See - it's more about political correctness than the denotative meaning of the phrase.
However, it still does make sense to me to use the term "pro-choice" (which BTW not being a native speaker of English I only learnt on this thread). So thank you for drawing my attention to this.
Pole
I used to be against abortion, but as a now-nontheist, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
The fetus' brain isn't developed enough to know what going on, and I don't believe that there is a "spirit" or a "soul" to destroy. It's nothing more than a 'potential' cognitive human being.
So, what's worse, getting rid of a child that should NEVER HAVE BEEN CONCEIVED, or bringing said unwanted child into an overpopulated world that will most likely present a lifetime of pain and suffering? If abortion is even considered by the parent(s) then apparently the child was not wanted. Some may say that adoptive parents will solve this problem, but the child will eventually find out that it was nothing more than an accidental, unwanted child and still suffer psychological pain.
So, if aborting a fetus will prevent future pain, then I'm all for it.
How is this "sweety" supposed to learn the deep truths that you have acquired if you refuse to debate them with you? And then you said "in many ways you remind me of 'me'" after reading his two or three posts, which is just another condescending remark. But it does fit into your motto of avoiding debates, I must admit."Good luck on your journey" anyway.
because so far it's proved futile, it's almost up to 6 pages now.
Evesapple,
Well I have enjoyed the debat and have learnt something. Small corrections to my view are now being considered. This thread is not futile at all.
sonnyboy,
Just a little point here: Europe and many other developed region of the world are not overpopulated. The opposite is the problem here. And abortion is mainly an issue in developed countries.
Cheers,
Pole
I wouldnt have an abortion myself, because im not sure I personally could live with the guilt afterwards.
I would never sway another person either way, or condemn them for any decision they might make, because I am not living their life, and I have no idea how difficult their life might be.
If I was raped, i would definately have an abortion, despite the guilt, because there is no way I could handle having a child that possibly looked like and had the personality of the rapist. What if he were a halfwit - you've seen the pictures - very low IQ, scary evil looking face. Theres no way I could care for a child and love it like it deserved to be loved. I would feel terrible though. It would kill me emotionally.
It is really sad that we value human life so little that we scale down our argument to the level of our own rights and choices, our personal problems which make this child dispensable. What about child's choices??? He/she never had a chance to make these. Of course, we can do that in our own minds but the real issue will never go away neither the fact that one human has just been brutally murdered by someone who should have loved him/her and protected him/her from any danger.
Someone might be offended by such level of openness but why shy away from the truth, lets call things by their real names for what they really are.
Not long ago there was rather dramatic situation in one of our hospitals where doctor just aborted a baby who kept crying for another hour or so while in next room they were trying to save life of another child born prematurely.
Can't you people see paradox of our "modern way of thinking". Killing a life should never be an option. Millions of people would gladly adopt such a baby so why kill it? It is great to have an opinion while such an opinion is not hurting anyone. However, once our way of thinking start affecting someone else’s life we should step back and not only one step but as far back as it take in order to preserve life.
Reading some pro-abortion arguments I get a feeling that “abortion or no abortion” is about as same as “do root canal or not do root canal”. (not in every case admittedly but in many definitely)
Of course, I understand some arguments that go along the line “young girls don’t have a choice” because of being in company with people who don’t care. Well, that’s rather shallow argument when someone else’s life is at stake.
So she made mistake once, does that now mean that everyone else around her should suffer because of it (especially her helpless unborn baby) well, excuse me sister suck it up as everyone else does in this world. Life is not covered with roses. You learn from your mistakes and push forward. Someone could have adopted that child and believe you me you’d be eternally grateful 20 years down the track once you see that grown man or woman whose life you decided to save. We call heroes people that save someone who is drowning, what about saving your own baby’s life?
On the other hand, man who leave women to care alone for her baby are true bastards. You son of a ***** that was your baby too.
That was the only chance, only shot that baby had for life on this earth and you took it away from him/her. How does that make you feel?
Here is an interesting article, and before being all fired-up all defensive about what I wrote trying going step back while reading this article in entirety and while trying to reflect what is really at stake here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what if the aborted baby cried?
By Melinda Tankard Reist - posted Tuesday, November 09, 2004 Sign Up for free e-mail updates!Sign Up for free e-mail updates!
He was distressed. When he began work as a doctor in a large hospital, he hadn't realised how much of his time would be spent doing this. He feared repercussions, he didn't want to be named. But he was tired of the cover-up.
Rarely a week went by when he didn't treat a woman arriving at the hospital after an abortion. Pain, excessive bleeding, infections, perforated cervixes and bladders, ruptured uteruses, severed fallopian tubes. Some needed blood transfusions. Others - surgery. He couldn't count how many times he'd removed retained fetal parts from women.
He can't forget the 16-year-old who arrived with almost 1m of bowel sitting between her legs. She required surgery; her bladder and bowel torn through, her uterus ruptured. "We found the torso, buttocks, a bit of a hand and the baby's head still inside her," the doctor said. "The baby had been literally ripped, drawn and quartered. The girl wasn't dead but she was close."
His account is from the bad old days of illegal abortion, surely. Well, no. This is but one story not from the backyard but the front yard of so-called safe, legal abortion. But no one wants to know about the women maimed by abortion today.
(Bet you didn't know about the 17-year-old Aboriginal girl who died of septic abortion in 1995 and the Asian woman in a persistent vegetative state in a nursing home following an abortion in 1994.)
This doctor's comments came back to me this week when I heard supporters talking about abortions at whatever stage being about women's health. It's time this platitude was challenged. The risks of abortion are well documented. But women are kept in the dark. They're also often not told how their pregnancy will be ended.
Most of the debate is about late-term abortion. According to Medicare statistics there are about 660 of these a year. (These figures are understated - they don't include some abortions in public hospitals or third-trimester terminations.) The pro-abortion thought police continue to sanitise the violence of these infanticides.
Baby J was born alive after an abortion at 22 weeks performed in Darwin Private Hospital. She lived - and cried - for 80 minutes.
Baby Jessica wasn't far away from birth when she was aborted at 32 weeks' gestation. At midnight one night in June 2000, a Melbourne ultrasound specialist (see On line Opinion article) injected potassium chloride into the baby's beating heart. Labour was induced at Royal Women's Hospital and Jessica, who was suspected to have dwarfism, arrived dead four hours later.
David Grundmann in Queensland is known for partial-birth abortion, which involves pulling the fetus down the birth canal feet first with forceps. The head is delivered. Scissors are inserted through the fetus's skull to open the way for a high-powered suction tube that sucks the brain, allowing the skull to be crushed and delivery completed.
Grundmann has admitted performing abortions into the seventh month of pregnancy. He has aborted babies with cleft lips and palates and heart conditions.
Elsewhere, a recent South Australian report found most late-term abortions were of healthy babies. A feminist abortion clinic worker once described the shock of seeing an aborted baby come out with "its fingers in its mouth".
This unborn child, so devalued and derided, is actually very valuable to researchers. Between 1984 and 2002, fetal tissue - described as a "scarce resource" - from babies of up to 20 weeks' gestation was used for research by 19 biomedical researchers at 12 institutions. The big distribution centre for these body parts is the diabetes transplant unit at the Prince of Wales Hospital, Sydney. This clearing house for fetal parts supplies bones, cartilage, eyes, kidneys, brains, spinal cords, pancreases, livers, skin, placentas, adrenal glands and hearts. The spoils of late-term abortion are up for grabs.
Recently, researchers harvested ovarian tissue from 7 aborted female fetuses aged between 22 and 33 weeks. They hope to stimulate the ovaries into producing fully mature eggs. These dead babies could one day be mothers.
If born prematurely, these babies would most likely survive. They are given no pain relief. It's time to cut through the euphemism and double-speak to take a cold hard look at our unregulated abortion industry, which knocks off babies a breath away from birth and preys on the desperation of women for whom pro-choice equals no choice.
Midwife Carrie Williams told an inquest into Baby J's death that when she contacted the doctor who aborted the baby to inform him she was still alive, his response was, "So?" Will this continue to be the collective response to the barbarity of abortion against women and children?
First published in The Australian November 3, 2004
... And to add. We all could have been aborted you know. In which case wouldn't be here to give an opinion about abortion.
