FATAL ASSUMPTIONS

by You Know 107 Replies latest jw friends

  • Winston
    Winston

    You Know,

    Boy You Know your so cleaver you musta had your Weathies(beakfast of champions) today.

    I'm serious now You Know, you really should be on the Governing Body they could use a few good men like you.

    Why heck if they had say 4 or 5 good men like you they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now.

    Remember you need to help those guys, I mean its only godly love you show, they may not know it but they sure need you.

    Why if they have any plants on this board I'm sure they are awe struck at your theocratic statagy.

    You'll be recognized someday as the Brother who made the internet safe for JWs.

    [:-)]

    The Never Ending Search For Truth

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    You Know:

    With all DUE respect and human dignity to all participants in this public forum, I have not as of yet resorted to a personalized campaign of mud slinging. Rather, I ATTEMPT to appeal to reason, intelligence and whatever degree of honesty is available, all without malice.

    Unfortunately, you may have issues at present with other members of the forum. To my knowledge, I have not been affected by this situation, yet.

    My only purpose is to SHARE an alternative, expanded, different viewpoint on religion in general, with accepted western christianity as a primary focus. Since the entire contents of the universe and its knowledge and origins is not 100% understood by ANYONE, then the contents and quality of faith is a valid topic for examination.

    In my previous posts, I attempted to deliver to you information that is perhaps far in advance of the WTBS or standing in direct conflict.

    That concerns the spiritual detour through any human organization which causes more confusion and allegiance to traditions and men. If Christ came for no other reason, He certainly intended to overturn the works of corrupt men.

    You attempted to condescend my honest statements. I will not retaliate, however, you should consider whether or not the entire Greek Scriptures, as a theme, in their contexts, support organized religion or support enlightened humans, growing into father/son relationships with Almighty God Jehovah, through the ransom and mediation of one person only--Christ.

    There is no allownace for other than the personal and individual demonstrations of love from one human to another in all of the greek writings. Whether you accept Ray Franz or any other alteranative viewpoint to the WTBS teachings, the fact is MANY other intepretations exist. That is in itself a ROOT problem with religion to begin with.

    Can God be worshiped by the individual, without interference? Can a man obey bible principles, and let his example motivate and stimulate others, even strangers? Read the bible accounts for yourself, without WTBS in mind.

    Also, what organization existed in Eden? Irregardless of whether you and the purport that Heaven is organized, consider that ONLY humans were supposedly created in God's image. No where does scripture say that about angels.

    We were created differently, with a different purpose. Organizing and directing one another was NOT part of that purpose. Simply examine your WTBS teaching about the "final test" and see for yourself. What happens then? When all things are handed back over to JAH, what happens then? Immortality for humans? One on One with JAH again, like Eden?

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    We were created differently, with a different purpose. Organizing and directing one another was NOT part of that purpose

    In other words, as Paul(?) is recorded to have said:

    "Not that we are masters over YOUR faith..."

    Amen... amen, UR... and may you have peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • MDS
    MDS

    You Know:

    The following info will give critical insight into someone you know nothing of as of yet, ... but he "coming."

    Ezekiel's Mystery "Chieftain"/Leader, A Sinner???

    We read at Ezekiel 44:1-3 the following mysterious information about a FUTURE Temple of God's making and blessing,

    "And he proceeded to bring me back by way of the gate of the Sanctuary, the outer one facing east, and it was shut. Then Jehovah said to me: "As regards this gate, shut is how it will continue. It will not be opened, and no mere man will come in by it; for Jehovah himself, the God of Israel, has come in by it, and it must continue shut. However, the chieftain -- as chieftain he himself will sit in it [the east gate], in order to eat bread before Jehovah. By way of the porch of the gate he will come in, and by way of it he will go out." -- Ezekiel 44:1-3

    "And on that day, in his own behalf and in behalf of all the people of the land, the chieftain must provide a young bull as a sin offering." -- Ezekiel 45:22

    Who is this mystery "Chieftain." Is it Jesus Christ? Or is it someone else. He is said to make a "sin" offering for himself as well as for the people of the nation? Who could this be? Can we find the answers to these questions in the Bible?

    Interestingly, the Expositors Bible Commentary Volume 6 (released in 1986) page 974 makes this open, honest, and straightforward comment on the "chieftain's" true identity. It says,

    "Only the prince was permitted to enter this gate. He must enter and leave by way of the portico from the outer court only. His only function within that gate was to eat bread in the presence of the LORD, but exactly which meal or for what purpose is not stated.

    "The identity of this prince has been a puzzle to many. The meaning of the Hebrew word nasi has in itself contributed to the problem. The English word prince connotes royalty. However, the word nasi would best be translated "leader" (cf. E.A. Speiser, "Background and Function of the Biblical Nasi," CBQ 25 [1963]: 111-17). This leader was not the Messiah, because the leader is made a sin offering for himself (cf. 45:22). If the leader" were Jesus Christ, then he, the Messiah, would need cleansing from sin. Such was not possible (cf. Heb 4:15). In addition, this leader had natural children (46:16), another impossibility for the Messiah. THE LEADER WAS A MAN. Some have identified him with David, citing Eze. 34:23-24 and Eze. 37:24 as support. However, these passages have been shown above to apply to the Messiah, not David.

    "The identity of the leader is unknown. He functions as the people's leader in their millennial worship, almost like a high priest, but not having the same role and function." -- Expositors Bible Commentary Volume 6, page 974

    Bible scholars are baffled.

    But who is he, this mystery "chieftain," that has gained Jehovah's favor, as described above.

    Ezekiel 46:16, 17 says of him, this "sinner" in whom God elevates to unheard of heights before for an imperfect man,

    "This what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, In case the chieftain should give a gift to each one of his SONS as his inheritance, it itself will become the property of his sons themselves. It is their possession by inheritance. And in case he should give a gift from his inheritance to one of his SERVANTS, [literally "slaves" see fnt Large Print NWT REf Bib] it must also become his until the year of liberty; and it must return to the chieftain..." -- Ezekiel 46:16, 17

    He has "sons." He has "servants" or "slaves."

    Also,

    "As for all the people of the land, they will be responsible for this contribution to the chieftain in Israel." -- Ezekiel 45:16

    The people are responsible to give the "contribution" to this mystery "Chieftain."

    After considering this above information...we are reminded this future "chieftain," is a "sinner." No, there can be no question but this future "Chieftain" is a "sinner," a descendant of Adam, just as Ezekiel 45:22 says, as we read above.

    So then, it CANNOT be Jesus Christ, at all.

    No, it cannot.

    So then, Who is he, we must ask ourselves?

    Who is he?

    And, why does Almighty God, give him such authority within God's Future Temple, a "sinner", a descendant of Adam? Why?

    Why does God Almighty, command "all the people of the land" to give him the "Contribution"? Why?

    What has he done to deserve such an honor from Almighty God? What?

    Also, we read, he has "sons," does he not? How did they get to be his "Sons," this imperfect man, this "sinner"?

    Again, we note, he has yes, "Servants" [slaves], does he not?

    How can he have "servants", how could such a situation come into being or ever develop?

    Why would Jehovah say, these individuals are "servants," or slaves unto this "sinner," this imperfect man, this "chieftain"?

    What has happened to cause this situation?

    Yes, who is this mystery "Chieftain" of the book of Ezekiel?

    And why is he given so much authority within God's Temple, of the future?

    Why is he the only one, permitted to "sit in the east gate," in the "presence of Jehovah," and "eat bread"? Why?

    How did a man, a "sinner" gain such a lofty position before Jehovah God? How?

    Yes, You Know, who is he?

    This one you clearly know nothing about...

    MDS

  • You Know
    You Know
    So then, Who is he, we must ask ourselves? ...And why is he given so much authority within God's Temple, of the future?

    Let me guess. Ray Franz? LOL / You Know

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    MAD:

    I disagree with your rather sarcastic comment concerning Ray Franz as if the previous post regarding the mystery chieftain sinner was somehow prefabricated in that particular direction.

    While animosities may have developed between others and yourself, please make an honest academic attempt and exercise a facsimile of restraint. I have learned much from your postings as well as others, however, attacking Ray Franz is unecessary.

    Since none of the "pro" WTBS members of this forum have EVER served on the GB, or EVER produced any WTBS literature, or EVER participated in serious scholarly biblical research--for a living, then it is inappropriate to attack the individual.

    The chieftain information is probably new for many, and deserves a fair amount of consideration and review BEFORE criticism is rendered.

    LA MORTE ET CERTUS, ET TOTO CETERI ET INCERTUS!

  • gladiamout
    gladiamout

    You Know and God Rules, Are you two really of the faithful? I would think if you are you would do your best to stay away from the likes of us!!!!!!! After all if I remember you are not to speak to us and especialy about ANY thing spritual. Just wondering?

  • You Know
    You Know

    I wasn't attacking Ray Franz. I was making fun of the fools that worship him, or as Jude says of the apostate: "while they are admiring personalities for the sake of their own benefit." / You Know

  • MDS
    MDS

    Hi Utopian Reformist:

    Regarding "You Know", you said,

    I disagree with your rather sarcastic comment concerning Ray Franz as if the previous post regarding the mystery chieftain sinner was somehow prefabricated in that particular direction...Since none of the "pro" WTBS members of this forum have EVER served on the GB, or EVER produced any WTBS literature, or EVER participated in serious scholarly biblical research--for a living, then it is inappropriate to attack the individual...The chieftain information is probably new for many, and deserves a fair amount of consideration and review BEFORE criticism is rendered
    .

    I appreciate your comments above.

    Thank you for being so studious, and genuinely interested in discussing the "deep things of God", matters of "serious concern," to all ardent students of Holy Scripture. -- 1 Cor. 2:10; Phil. 4:8

    As you have stated above, not much "research" has been done on the above subject by JWs. It seems, (as with many other subjects) the WTS has basically avoided this subject, with only casual mention of the subject, here and there in their literature. A few printed comments mentions the "Chieftain" representing the "Princes" over the earth, during the 1,000 year reign of peace, taken from Isa. 32nd chapter and Psalms 45th. -- See "The Nations Shall Know that I Am Jehovah - How?" pages 401-405; Watchtower 2/15/80 page 24; 1973 Watchtower pages 426-428.

    However that is impossible. Why?

    Earlier, as mentioned above, the mystery "Chieftain," has "Sons," and "Servants," clearly with the approval of Jehovah God. This imperfect, sinful man, the "Chieftain." See Ezekiel 46:16, 17

    Now we can't imagine the present-day "elders" among JWs of today, if ever permitted at all in the 1,000 year reign of Peace, to ever, ever, ever be permitted to have "Servants," [literally "Slaves" fnt NWT Lg Prt Ref Bibl] or even spiritual "Sons", during that wonderful time of peace and righteousness, can we? The WTS "elder body" of JWS, no, could never, ever rightfully hold such a position before Jehovah God during this such a wonderful period, the Millenlium of Peace. They have done nothing to merit this high respect of others of mankind. No they have not. So, how could they ever have what Jehovah calls, "slaves," attending to them. No, no "slaves" or "servants" could they have, in any sense of the word. No they cannot...they are clearly unworthy of such an honor.

    So obviously, the "elders" cannot in any way picture this mystery "Chieftain" while in the 1,000 year reign of peace.

    Obviously, something unusual is going on here, since the mystery "Chieftain" is himself, clearly a "sinner" and indeed, does have "slaves" or "servants", all approved by Jehovah God. -- Ezekiel 45:22

    What did this mystery "Chieftain" do to merit such rank and authority in the eyes of the whole camp of Israel, and more importantly, in the eyes of Jehovah God?

    He must have done something, quite significant.

    Another point of interest is this,

    Ezekiel 45:18-20 says of that future temple arrangement,

    "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, In the first month on the first day of the month, you should take a young bull, a son of the herd, a sound one, and you must purify the sanctuary from sin. And the priest must take some of the blood of the sin offering and put in upon the doorpost of the House of upon the four corners of the surrounding ledge belonging to the altar and upon the doorpost of the gate of the inner courtyard. And that is how you will do on the seventh day in the month because of any making a mistake and because of any inexperienced one; and you people must make atonement for the House." -- Ezekiel 45:18-20

    As we remember, we are taught that in the 1,000-year reign of peace, everyone has been "freed" or "liberated" from the effects of Adamic Sin. And this is true. Therefore, in that period of time, there will be no more "making mistakes," and errors of the "inexperienced one." Every one will be perfect, free of sin.

    However, we notice in this temple..."mistakes" can still be made, errors of the "inexperienced" and imperfect, sinful man. And yet, Jehovah has made provision for the "covering" and "atonement" of such "mistakes." Why?

    Obviously, these individuals ARE STILL IMPERFECT, STILL SINNERS, while officiating at Jehovah's FUTURE Temple. Yes, in this "sinful" state, they serve in "priestly" capacity, carrying out duties of "Priests," in acceptable worship before God. Thus, a fully acceptable Priesthood of mankind in its "sinful" state on earth. A "Priesthood" that can make "mistakes." And yet, Jehovah is perfectly willing to "atone" for a situation, again, upon earth.

    Therefore, this FUTURE, earthly arrangement, complete with "sinful" Chieftain, Sinful Priestly (Zadok) Sons, sinful Servants, and "sinful" people in its entirety have been SANCTIONED and fully AUTHORIZED by Jehovah God, with His full blessings, to function and represent God Almighty, ALL BEFORE THE MILLENIUM STARTS.

    Amazing!

    Is this not "Good News" to all who are truly "Israel"? -- Isaiah 52:7; 61:1-5; Romans 10:15

    Yes it is!

    MAIN POINT: In other words, Ezekiel's vision of this future temple shows us, unequivocally, that true worship will truly be RE-ESTABLISHED upon earth, RESTORED UPON EARTH, by "sinners", men in a "sinful" state, all with Jehovah God's Eternal Blessings, BEFORE THE MILLENIUM STARTS, and before God REMOVES "sin" from mankind as a whole. -- Matt. 19:28; Acts 3:20, 21

    This is why Isaiah 4:5 says,

    "Jehovah will also certainly create over every established place of Mount Zion and over her convention place a cloud by day and a smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; because over all the glory there will be a shelter."

    Again, we cannot deny the fact, yes, that this is an earthly, theocratic religious arrangement, approved by Jehovah God. This is an Earthly Scene, isn't it?

    There can be no doubt that it is.

    The above mention of "the first month, on the first day" of that same month, is quite interesting and informative. No doubt it is.

    Ezekiel 45:18 mentions "the first day" of "the first month." The "first month" of the Sacred Calendar for Ancient Israel is the month known as NISAN.

    Jehovah mentions NISAN 1 as a special time to take note. Why?

    Yes, what should NISAN 1, remind all Israelites of, yes indeed, ALL JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES of... of what?

    Well, wasn't it the day, Jehovah God "brought down a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night" and cast it over the "Tent of Meeting," to show HIS ACCEPTANCE of that new "Tabernacle" arrangement. Also, to give His Eternal Guidance to the camp of Israel and Moses ... wasn't this the actual "day" that this all happened?

    Yes, that "day" was in fact NISAN 1, was it not?

    Now, if we compare Exodus 40:2 with Numbers 9:15, 16 we will see, NISAN 1 is a very special day to Jehovah God...thus we see the value of its mention in Ezekiel 45:18

    The "Date" is mentioned for a reason, an important reason. We remember,

    NISAN 1 is that special day, when Jehovah ACCEPTS and INAUGURATES PURE WORSHIP for "sinful" Israel. Jehovah accepts the "Tabernacle", the Temple arrangement of Israel on NISAN 1... a special day of celebration, just as the Jews celebrate this date even down to our modern times ... NISAN 1.

    So we have the all-important "connection", given to us by God Almighty, Jehovah. It signals the RE-ESTABISHMENT of Pure Worship in the sight of Jehovah God. It represents His full acceptance of worship from "sinners," descendants of Adam, BEFORE, yes BEFORE the Millenium starts. And this form of pure and acceptable worship will be well received by Jehovah God? Why?

    Because of the efforts and activities of the Mystery "Chieftain," that is UNEXPLAINABLY allowed to "eat bread" in the very "Presence" of God Almighty Himself. The one who is like the "sinner" Moses, who we remember was told,

    "...Go up to Jehovah, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the older men of Israel, and you must bow down from a distance. And Moses by himself must approach Jehovah; but they should not approach, and the people should not go up with him." -- Numbers 24:1, 2

    Only Moses, the "sinner" should approach Jehovah ... Only Moses, the "sinner" that God had chosen. Only Moses.

    And, only the mystery "Chieftain," a "sinner", can approach, can do this,... "eat bread in the presence of Jehovah" in the East Gate. -- Ezekiel 44:1-3

    So, there is much we can learn from a close examination of the book of Ezekiel about the re-establishment of pure and acceptable worship of Jehovah God, as we as Jehovah's Witnesses by necessity, "make our escape."

    Surely we today, as modern-day "Israel," and Israel of old have much to be thankful for. Jehovah has remembered us. Jehovah has provided for us. But, we must be obedient...to make our "escape," the same as Ancient Israel of old. For example, just as Israel of old we remember NISAN 14, and the celebration of the Passover, which means "escape" from OPPRESSIVE EGYPT. We too should be thinking the same, of our impending "escape" from modern-day OPPRESSIVE "Egypt" of our day, the Watchtower Society. -- See Revelation 11:8

    MDS

  • You Know
    You Know

    TO MDS:

    I have been waiting for you to tell us who the Chieftan is. What about it? /You Know

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