FATAL ASSUMPTIONS

by You Know 107 Replies latest jw friends

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    You Know,

    Are you an active Jehovah's Witness. Do you attend meetings and go in field service? Or are you, like Friday, inactive and waiting for the Watchtower to be cleaned up? Just curious.

    I take full responsibility for myself. I am no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because I don't believe it is the truth. I did not read Franz's book until after I was an exJW for 3 or 4 years.

    I am no longer a Jehovah's Witness because I came to a point where I no longer believed their explanation of the purpose for life (the glorification of Jehovah and proving his Universal Sovereignty) or their explanation of Jehovah's judgement system (being aligned with an earthly organization at a specific point in time). This is simplistic, it is much more complicated than that. I continue to research and discuss my feelings with witnesses, ex-witnesses and those of many philosophical ilks. So far, no one has a satisfying answer, so I remain a student.

    Since I don't believe there is some vast eternal plan. I am an admitted hedonist. I live for pleasure, the pleasure I can give to myself and to others around me. Since I believe this life is all there is, I am trying to make the most out of it.

    I will not make a choice based on a scare tactic. I will not serve God simply to avoid being destroyed. I will serve God (if he exists) when I am shown how his purpose for the earth and the methodology he uses to govern and judge his creation makes sense. If I am wrong, so be it. As I have stated here before, it won't break my heart for the many fine people I have known during my life to be rewarded with eternal life on a paradise earth.

    I don't like your approach. You make some interesting points. When you make these rationally and do so with kindness, I listen to you and meditate on what you say. When you end your posts with LOL and utilize other silly jeers and insults, you appear to me as a someone who does not represent truth or love. More importantly, you appear to me to be someone who does not care enough about people to warrant the careful choice of words you use to discuss matters with them.

    Yes, Jesus rebuked the false teachers and hypocrites of his time. Those who set themselves up as leaders over others for the glory it brought them. I don't think there are many people of that sort here. There are a few. Most of the people here are like me, they are searching for answers, about their own lives and life in general. I don't like the way you treat them. I doubt that if Jehovah exists that he likes it either.

    Deliver your message with love or don't deliver it at all. The topic you are discussing is too important to be laden with LOL's and juvenile put downs. If you stumble even one lurker or poster here who might have otherwise listened to you, you are a fool for doing so.

    Are you a fool or are you a man who is serious about truth and respects truth enough to discuss it with love and reasoning?

    I wish you peace.

    Joel

  • You Know
    You Know

    This a supposed to be a discussion board for Jehovah's Witnesses to discuss issues related to our faith. I realize of course that nearly all posters are apostate JW's. (I don't know about the readers, or even if there are any lurkers.) Be that as it may, I am willing to discuss apostate issues too, the ones that interest me anyway; as well as give my reasons for my continuing to have faith as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. But, when some posters want to pry into my private life, that's not something that should be of interest to anyone but me. Or, if you have complaints that you don't like my style or don't like me for whatever reason, well, that's too bad. I don't care. As I said: I am not running in a popularity contest.

    What's the saying? Something like...Small minds talk about people, and mediocre minds things, and great minds ideas. Why not comment on the content of my posts if you wish and forget about the poster?

    / You Know

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Okay,

    Your posts are a bunch of hogwash.

    People should live and love each other for the reward loving others brings, not for some pie in the sky deliverance.

    snugs

    Joel

  • MDS
    MDS

    Hi "You Know":

    Indeed, according to Malachi's prophecy, when Jesus arrives to judge God's people, he will sit as a refiner and laundryman in order to throughly and finally cleanse those who are destined to inherit the kingdom. That's why Malachi says, "but who will be the one standing when he appears?"

    Again, look at the verses you've quote, the ones in question. I will quote them.

    "Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way BEFORE ME [Jehovah]..." -- Compare Isa 40:3.

    "...BEFORE ME..."

    The "Messenger" goes BEFORE Jehovah, who is the One who comes with "judgment", Final Judgment. But again this is clearly AFTER the "refining" & "Cleansing" period is complete. Verse 4 shows the "cleansing/refining" period to be complete because it states,

    "And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be gratifying to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity." -- Malachi 3:4

    They are "RESTORED", and then Jehovah comes with "Judgment." -- Malachi 3:5

    So then, the "refining/cleansing" work and activity has done its job. The "restoration" work is completed, BEFORE any "judging" is done, which is quickly mentioned in the very next verse, Malachi 3:5. "Refining" in verse 4, and then, "judgment" in verse 5. -- See Malachi 3:2-5

    "And I [Jehovah] will come near to you people FOR THE JUDGMENT,..." -- Malachi 3:5

    Now, the "judging" begins...AFTER the "cleansing/refining" is done by namely, the "Messenger," the "Messenger of the Covenant." -- Malachi 3:1

    Yes, Jehovah God is the real "Judge" here. That's why verse 5 says, AFTER the "refining and cleansing" period mentioned in Malachi 3:2-4, Jehovah God then, most appropriately, starts the "JUDGING" PERIOD. Jehovah starts the "Judging" process AFTER the "Refining" & "Cleansing" period is complete, mentioned in Malachi 3:5.

    That point is clear.

    Thus, the activity of the "Spirit of Truth," or "that which is complete," or the activity of the "messenger of the Covenant," or as the prophet "Malachi" calls him, the activity of "Elijah", yes Elijah...when "Elijah" gets a chance to carry out his "refining" activity, true spiritual "restoration of Israel" occurs for "Israel."

    This is why Malachi (the very book you are quoting), specifically says at Malachi 4:5,

    "Look! I am sending to you Elijah the prophet BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND FEAR-INSPIRING DAY OF JEHOVAH." -- Malachi 4:5

    Did you get that "You Know"?

    That's BEFORE the "Great Day of Jehovah," our God, Jehovah and Jesus SENDS US, sends "Israel," the Great Prophet "Elijah." And what work does he do? Let's consider the very next verse.

    "...And he must turn the hearts of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting of it to destruction." -- Malachi 4:6

    Jehovah does not "delight in the death of the wicked," You Know. And so, in keeping with His own high standard of righteousness and fair play, he sends "Elijah." This is clearly done, so that He [Jehovah] does not have to come, and bring about complete destruction.

    Jehovah and Jesus "wishes all attain to repentance." That is their "wish" ... "ALL...attain to repentance" and gain life. That's all people. -- See Ezekiel 18:23; Micah 7: 18, 19; 2 Peter 3:9.

    So, out of love, Jehovah and Jesus, send "Elijah" ..."First." -- Matthew 17:10, 11

    Simple.

    They send "that which is complete." They send the "Spirit of Truth." -- 1 Corinthians 13:9, 10

    Simple.

    Now, Jesus Christ, IS NOT "Elijah", is he? -- Matthew 17:11

    Jesus is not the "spirit of truth," is he? -- John 16:13, 14

    Jesus is not "that which is complete", is he? -- 1 Corinthians 13:9, 10

    As you stated above, Jesus is a judge...sitting at the "right hand of God," in a Kingly, Royal state. Jesus is a Heavenly Judge, sitting right beside Jehovah God in Heaven. Right?

    In fact, the Bible clearly says,

    "and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for you, Jesus WHOM HEAVEN, INDEED, MUST HOLD WITHIN ITSELF until the times of restoration of ALL THINGS of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets ofl old time." -- See Acts 3:20, 21.

    Did you notice, "Heaven"...must "hold within itself," ... Jesus. Did you see that?

    Yes, "heaven must hold within itself", Jesus BEFORE spiritual restoration. Jesus stays in "heaven," until spiritual "restoration of ALL THINGS", the spiritual restoration of "Israel" is complete. That's the point of Acts 3:20, 21.

    "Heaven" ..."holds within itself," ... Jesus Christ...until spiritual "restoration" is complete.

    Did you get that, "You Know"?

    Spiritual restoration of all things then, COMES first.

    Yes,...all truth comes first,

    ...the declaration of the things coming, or the future...Elijah...the spirit of the truth...that "which is complete,"...happens FIRST, as John 16:13, 14 says.

    So,

    "Elijah must come FIRST." First, First, First... -- Matt. 17:10

    Elijah must "RESTORE ALL THINGS" as Jesus said... -- Matt. 17:11

    So, then...who is this "Elijah"?

    Yes, who is this "Messenger of the Covenant"? -- Malachi 3:1

    He is the one who comes with a New "Covenant" for the people? That's why he called the "Messenger of the Covenant,"

    Just like Jesus was ONCE called the same thing...because he came with another "Covenant" of peace...so this person. Another Covenant for "Israel."

    But he NOT Jesus...this "Messenger of the Covenant" that PRECEDES Jesus, "in the last day," in our day...no, no, no.

    He is the one Isaiah spoke about, who said this one would comes with a "Covenant" of peace for God's People.

    Jehovah spoke thru the ancient prophet long ago, Isaiah 42:6 and said of him,

    "...I shall safeguard you and give you as a COVENANT of the people..."

    Again, Jehovah says of him, at Isaiah 49:8

    "...I kept safeguarding you that I might give you as a COVENANT for the people..."

    He is the "Messenger of the Covenant," just as Jesus was during his day. But, he is not the judge. He simply delivers "THE MESSAGE," The "Word" that does all the "judging." -- Malachi 3:1; John 12:38, 48

    He is the one that has been given permission by Jehovah and Jesus Christ, to "restore all things," the one that Jesus spoke of in John 16:14 which says,

    "that one [Spirit of The Truth] will glory me [Jesus], because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you."

    The "he" that does the "declaring" to the true servants of God, Israel, is the "Spirit of the Truth."

    This "one," who brings "glory" to Jesus himself...brings "glory" to Jesus. He is a "christian"...a follower of Jesus...a worshiper of Jehovah God. He is the "man in Christ" who is given "utterable words", mysterious words, sacred secrets, unmentional hidden things, that Psalms 78:2,3 shows he would utter, what normally seems to be "utterable," "unlawful," just like Jesus. -- 2 Corinthians 12:2-5

    And we dare not, turn away from his words either ... why?

    He has the "doctrine" or "teaching of Jehovah," with him. It is no ordinary message either.

    "If anyone wants to do His Will, HE WILL KNOW WHETHER THE TEACHING IS FROM GOD..." -- John 7:17

    The "teaching of God" is quite different. It is truth, real "truth" and CANNOT be refuted by the use of God's Word, the Bible. That's because God's Purposes are consistent -- thru out in Holy Scripture.

    "In fact, Moses said Jehovah will raise up from among your brothers a prophet like me. You MUST LISTEN TO HIM according to all the things he speaks to you. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be COMPLETELY DESTROYED FROM AMONG the people." -- Acts 3:22, 23

    Jesus said, the people, Israel that DID NOT listen to him, WILL GET A RESURRECTION, even though verbally "condemned" and rebuked by the "Queen of Sheba," and those repentent ones of "Nineveh." Because they did not listen...but they will get still get a resurrection. -- Luke 11:31, 32

    But this is NOT SO for those of our day, who do not "LISTEN" to the "Restoration" work of the "Spirit of Truth," the one we call "Elijah", who "comes first," BEFORE the "great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah." That Great Destructive Day. -- Matthew 17:10, 11; Malachi 4:6

    But who is he?

    No, He is not Jesus...clearly he NOT Jesus...clearly.

    The scriptures show He is NOT Jesus Christ, at all...no he is not.

    But he comes with a "teaching." A "Doctrine." A different teaching, a different "doctrine." It is the same "doctrine" that Jesus spoke of in John 7:16, 17. A Doctrine that cannot be refuted.

    "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said, What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me..."

    That "him that sent me," is none other than Jehovah God, the Almighty.

    So, the "teaching," the "doctrine" BELONGS to Jehovah God. Its Jehovah God's "doctrine," His "teaching."

    Now, who is so bold as to REPROACH, JEER, MAKE FUN, RIDICULE the actual "doctrine," and "teaching" of Jehovah God...who is that bold...I want to know?

    Who is so bold as to REPEL the actual work of the holy spirit and its dissemination of the "Doctrine" or "Teaching" of Jehovah God?

    Who among "Israel," is the one that "begs off" from the Voice of God.

    "See that you do not beg off from him who is speaking. For if they did not escape who begged off from him who was giving divine warning upon earth, much more shall we not if we turn away from hm who speaks from the heavens. At that time his voice shook the earth..." -- Hebrews 12:25, 26

    And whose "voice" is that? Almighty Jehovah...

    We cannot "beg off" ... and "escape," Paul says.

    We cannot "escape," ... in any way, shape, fashion or form...

    ...we cannot...

    So, who will not hear the Voice of Truth, the Voice of God, the "doctrine of God," ... and "escape"?

    Who can turn away from the "Doctrine of God," turn away from the "Report" or message of God, and not find themselves in big trouble...who?

    "...who has put faith in the thing heard ["the report," fnt Ref. Bib.], ... He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day." -- John 12:38, 48

    The "Word" does the actual "Judging."

    When?

    "...in the last day."

    The "Word" judges "in the last day."

    The "last day," our day...The "Word" of God does this.

    So, then, it is NOT direct Godly-intervention, a power display of Power in the form of miracles, no, no, no miraculous "signs" and "wonders," no not "powerful works," at all, that God "Sends." No, no, but "The Sender," Almighty, yes sends His "Word" ... His doctrine or Teaching. That's what is sent to us...to see our response to it.

    Yes, the "word" is sent first. The kinder, gentler, message of God...the "Gentle Waters" of "Shiloah" [or Siloam], real "healing waters," are sent first. "Shi-loah" means "Sender". (See fnt large prt Ref Bibl NWT, Isa. 8:6)

    The "Sender," Jehovah God.

    Yes, the real "Sender" of these "gentle waters", "healing waters", His "Word," is Jehovah God. Thus, His "gentle waters," His "doctrine," His "teaching" MUST BE RESPECTED, and adhered to at ALL TIMES. -- See Isaiah 8:6; John 12:38, 48. It is He, the Almighty that is speaking.

    Therefore, if we do not respond to the "gentle," "healing" waters of God's Word, God's express will toward repentance, then the "judging" rightfully, comes next. Yes, rightfully, appropriately so.

    So, it is this very same "Word," that is really "preached" as "good news" to Israel, "in the last day," yes...yes, that is "preached"...that actually "does the judging" of this same said people. The spoken "Word of God," during the "last day," during the time the "Spirit of Truth," is in operation..."Elijah," who "restores all things" ... the "good news" ... that is preached... that ultimately "JUDGES" Israel...that "word."

    MAIN POINT: That is the point of John 12:38, 48.

    The "Word", the "good news" does the actual "judging" in the eyes of Jehovah and Jesus Christ...the "Word"...we rebuffed.

    God need not, then send us ANY MIRACLES...any "powerful works," ... but only His all-pervasive, irrepressible, "Word."

    "...Heaven and earth will pass away, BUT NOT MY WORD." -- Matthew 24:35

    Remember...

    No, there is no way, no, that we can turn away from His "message," His "doctrine," His "Teaching", ...why?

    Because He is Almighty...All-Powerful, All-knowing...

    The "buck stops here..." as they say.

    It is the "doctrine of God", as Jesus said at John 7:16, 17...

    "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: What I teach not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." -- John 7:16, 17

    "If anyone desires to do God's Will,"...

    If the person is sincere, God-fearing, searching for truth, wants to actually "do God's Will,"...

    A very sincere servant of God,

    "...HE WILL KNOW CONCERNING THE TEACHING WHETHER IT IS FROM GOD..."

    There is no way to miss...no room for error here...

    Jehovah makes sure, "he knows."

    1) "YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH [when you hear it], and the truth will set you free..." -- John 8:32

    2) "EVERYONE [with no exceptions] on the side of truth, listens to my voice..." -- John 18:37

    3) "MY SHEEP LISTEN TO MY VOICE, I know them, and they follow [only] me...and no one [including the Devil] SNATCHES them out of my hand." -- John 10:27, 28

    4) "...He that gains the knowledge of God LISTENS TO US..." -- 1 John 4:6

    And if it is the Voice of God, the "teaching of Jehovah," then, we cannot "beg off," or "escape," as Hebrews 12:25, 26 says.

    Israel cannot "escape" the "Word," the "gentle, healing," "waters" of God. And neither can Israel "escape", the finally "judging" Word of God. We cannot escape neither fate.

    Neither fate.

    We are going to be "exposed" to this "word", and if we do not responde, yes,...we will be "Judged" by this same "Word."

    The "Word," Jesus said comes from "Elijah." The prophet "Malachi" said that one "was to come FIRST," and "RESTORE ALL THINGS." -- Malachi 4:5; Matthew 17:10, 11

    That's "ALL THINGS,"..."RESTORES ALL THINGS"...BEFORE THE GREAT FEAR-INSPIRING DAY OF JEHOVAH.

    The "WORD" comes...to Israel.

    Elijah brings it.

    The one that must come "First", first before destruction...before the judgmental, destructive day, the "Great and Fear-Inspiring Day of Jehovah." -- Malachi 4:5; Matthew 17:10

    Jesus said of him,

    "In reply he said: "Elijah indeed, is coming and WILL RESTORE ALL THINGS[/u]." -- Matthew 17:11

    He is "Elijah," the one in whom Jehovah and Jesus uses to initiate, a "re-generation" of faith, a spiritual "PALINGENSIS" of Israel, while Jesus and his apostles "sit" in heaven," and "Judge, the twelve tribes of Israel." He initiates the "Palingenesis" or "rebirth", or "Restoration" of Israel, while Jehovah, Jesus and the apostles sit in heaven as a "Judges."

    Matthew 19:28 says,

    "Jesus said to them: Truly I say to you, in the RE-CREATION,... [see footnote in Large Print NWT, "regeneration; rebirth, Greek: Palingenesiai]...

    The verse continues,

    "...when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me [the apostles] will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." -- Matthew 19:28

    Israel receives a "rebirth," a "regeneration" BEFORE they are "judged." The apostles of Jesus participate in this "judging" of the "twelve tribes of Israel." Israel receives a "PALINGENESIS," the Greek word which means a spiritual "restoration." They receive this first, yes first before Judgment starts.

    This is the work of "Elijah," who "comes first," as Matthew 17:10 clearly shows.

    He is "Elijah," who Jehovah and Jesus give authority to, yes, "restore all things" to God's satisfaction. And to do this, happily, before, yes, before "Judgment" commences.

    That makes all things fair, equitable.

    Remember, BEFORE the Great and fear-inspiring Day of Jehovah, Jesus and Jehovah send "Elijah"...to straighten out all things, to guide us, lead us into "ALL TRUTH" ... "that which is complete arrives" first...to straighen things out, BEFORE Jehovah starts the "judgment" period. -- John 16:13

    And to think "You Know," all of that came out the very book you quoted, ... the book of "Malachi."

    Amazing...

    MDS

  • Vienna
    Vienna

    You Know:

    Do you realize how arrogant, condecending and uncaring your posts are, and in no way reflect well for the WT Society? I thought your goal was to win people to the organization? Do you talk to people in field service so cold and unhuman? I'm sure you tolerate them if they are interested, then turn cold as ice when they choose not to have a return visit. I was never like that as a witness. Even if people were wrong, I would always try to win them with love and still be kind. I would think, how else would I let them know I had the truth?

    If I were on this board seeking to know more about JWs, I would not want to join an organization where people acted like you. I'm not being mean or trying to be funny, but honestly your posts scare me in your lack of caring about people and just being human. Wow.

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    I have come to the conclusion that You Know and Friday are actually anti-Jehovah's Witness and pretend to be Jehovah's Witnesses just to discourage people who are Jehovah's Witnesses or may be thinking about becoming Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I know hundreds, maybe thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses and have never met any that act that either of these people.

    Its so easy on the internet to say you are anything. You can be one thing one day and another thing the next day.

    People should be very wary of people who make any claim on the internet as to who they are or who they represent.

    hugs

    Joel

  • logical
    logical

    MDS

    The WORD of God is not the Bible.

    Revelation 19:13 tells us exactly what the word of God is.

    Now please, read that verse and reply.

  • You Know
    You Know
    Do you realize how arrogant, condecending and uncaring your posts are, and in no way reflect well for the WT Society?

    Apostates accuse the Wacthtower of much worse crimes than what you are accusing me. They revile and slander the Governing Body and ridicule everyone who desires to remain loyal to their faith. Some of the more lizardly among them even blaspheme Jehovah as being a cold-blooded murderer; this by those who formerly were his Witnesses . So, when I consider how my God and brothers are dealt with by the apostate rabble, I welcome the abuse. If I were ever well spoken of by the people on this board, I would then take that as my cue that it was time to leave the forum and repent. LOL

    / You Know

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    You Know,

    I think you are the most valuable poster here by a long shot.

    You remind hundreds of people how hokey religion is. Your posts are brilliant.

    Joel

  • You Know
    You Know

    TO MDS:

    You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble on this post, but, perhaps because of your formatting, it is somewhat difficult to follow your thought. What I think I did get out of your post is that you think "Elijah" is the word of God, or perhaps the spirit of the truth?

    I don't think you made a very good Scriptural case for that argument. First, in Jesus' day "Elijah" was a real person in the forum of John the Baptizer. Jesus said that he was the "Elijah" that was to come. Secondly, "Elijah," along with "Moses" was in the transfiguration along with Christ. They represented those anointed ones who would ultimately be glorified with Christ when the sons of God are finally revealed. The full significance of that vision though is yet to be fully revealed, even as Christ forebade the observers of the vision from talking about it until after Christ was taken up to heaven. That presages something wonderful ahead. Finally, that vision ties in with Revelation were we see that the two witnesses that stand before Jehovah are actually the prophetic Moses and Elijah who have a final assignment to preach to the nations. The fact that they are killed by the political wild beast proves that "Elijah" could not be the spirit of the truth as you suppose.

    As to the judgment according to Malachi, I think what you are failing to appreciate is that God's judgment is not a singular event, but rather a period of specific duration. Consider as a type the fact that Jesus twice inspected God's temple in Jerusalem---once at the beginning of his ministry and once at the end. But the whole interval of time served as the time of his inspection. That's why Jesus told the Jews that they had "not discerned the time of their inspection." So it is in the grander fulfillment: Jesus, as the messenger of the covenant, commences judging those in the New Covenant first. That's why Malachi says the he will be a "speedy witness" against those practicing wickedness among the priests. That's part of the judging work he does BEFORE the final judgment, which of course occurs during the great day of God Almighty. I could be much more specific but there is really nothing for me to gain by doing so in this forum.

    / You Know

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