In response to Babylon being desolate to this day, it is not. That is a failed prophecy. It is worth doing a search on the internet, or i can email some articles and incredible photos. Babylon was partly rebuilt by Saddam. He was living in a palace in Iraq before the war with 300 permanent staff. During the invasion 3000 US troops used babylon as a base.
The Bible says that it will never be inhabited again, and it is.
The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets
by VM44 349 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jwfacts
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scholar
Jeffro
The Bible does not state the beginning of Babylon's desolation accoding to Jeremiah's oracle but it certainly commenced after its fall to the Medo-Persian empire in 539 BCE. Also, its fall from glory was also manifest with the release of the Jewish captives in 537 having no further hold on God's people. After these two dramatic historical events, Babylon experienced a slow fade into obscurity as Jeremiah foretold right up to the present.
The many references by Josephus to the desolation of Jerusalem, temple and land for seventy years from the Fall to the Return prove that the interpretation of matters by the FDS is correct. The end point of Josephus' comments is not the Fall of Babylon as you claim but the Return under Cyrus. It is Jeremiah not Josephus who describe in some detail the desolation of the land as 'without an inhabitant'but Josephus' description agrees with Jeremiah as a 'desert'. The original Hebrew words have a broad range of meaning and I am not proposing that these words mean 'depopulation' but Jeremiah's description as the 'the land without an inhabitant' certain does.
Jeremiah most certainly describes a time when Judah would be without an inhabitant in many places also as a object of astonishment, something to whistle about, a place of utter silence and devastation. Read such a description in Jeremiah 25: 9,10.11 in the context of the seventy years. If you do not agree with this view of matters the perhaps you could alert the readers as to when and how Jeremiah's 'without an inhabitant' applied?
So nothing happened after 1914 according to your ridicule but what about the Spanish Flu which is considered the greatest pandemic of all time? This is only one example of such realities on earth after 1914 which ushered in the 'Last Days' of this evil world.
You are examining the wrong word 'ersomai', what you should be looking at is the expression'estai patoumene' which means 'will be being trampled' which indicates that the Gentile Times was concurrent with the past -present-future trampling of until the appointed times for this would end in the future.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
The Bible does not state the beginning of Babylon's desolation accoding to Jeremiah's oracle but it certainly commenced after its fall to the Medo-Persian empire in 539 BCE. Also, its fall from glory was also manifest with the release of the Jewish captives in 537 having no further hold on God's people. After these two dramatic historical events, Babylon experienced a slow fade into obscurity as Jeremiah foretold right up to the present.
The bible quite clearly states the events that would mark the beginning of Babylon's desolation, so again you demonstrate that you are a liar. Specifically, the bible states clearly that " when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation". After 539, there was no Babylonian king, and it is at this time that Babylon was called to account which began its decline into obscurity. To say that it commenced two years later is nothing but a lie, and it makes no sense to say that the already-dead king was judged later. Babylon no longer had a hold on the Jews after 539 because there was no longer a Babylonian empire.
The many references by Josephus to the desolation of Jerusalem, temple and land for seventy years from the Fall to the Return prove that the interpretation of matters by the FDS is correct. The end point of Josephus' comments is not the Fall of Babylon as you claim but the Return under Cyrus. It is Jeremiah not Josephus who describe in some detail the desolation of the land as 'without an inhabitant'but Josephus' description agrees with Jeremiah as a 'desert'. The original Hebrew words have a broad range of meaning and I am not proposing that these words mean 'depopulation' but Jeremiah's description as the 'the land without an inhabitant' certain does.
Josephus explicitly says that he agrees with the Babylonian records that the Society rejects, so Josephus cannot be used as proof for the Society because it rejects his reliability. Jeremiah nowhere states that the land was without an inhabitant for 70 years. Jeremiah states that the region was without an inhabitant for some period of time, but he does not at all indicate that this was for 70 years or for any other definite period.
Jeremiah most certainly describes a time when Judah would be without an inhabitant in many places also as a object of astonishment, something to whistle about, a place of utter silence and devastation. Read such a description in Jeremiah 25: 9,10.11 in the context of the seventy years. If you do not agree with this view of matters the perhaps you could alert the readers as to when and how Jeremiah's 'without an inhabitant' applied?
The verses you indicate do not state anything about being "without an inhabitant". They do state that "all these nations round about" would be 'devastated', being 'an object of astonishment', etc. You choose to deliberately ignore who "them" refers to in these verses, though it is clearly defined. It would be going beyond what the bible says to speculate about exactly when and for what duration Jeremiah intended "without an inhabitant".
So nothing happened after 1914 according to your ridicule but what about the Spanish Flu which is considered the greatest pandemic of all time? This is only one example of such realities on earth after 1914 which ushered in the 'Last Days' of this evil world.
Firstly, the supposed prophecy was supposed to happen with "suddenness and great force" in October. That did not happen AT ALL. Secondly, the Spanish Flu had less affect on the world population percentage-wise than did Bubonic Plague in the 14th century. In fact, graphs of world population over time show a significant slump in the 14th century, much more significant than the Spanish Flu outbreak. Also, other posters have also already indicated wars that resulted in much greater numbers of casualties prior to World War I.
You are examining the wrong word 'ersomai', what you should be looking at is the expression'estai patoumene' which means 'will be being trampled' which indicates that the Gentile Times was concurrent with the past -present-future trampling of until the appointed times for this would end in the future.
Your clutching at straws is irrelevant because the fourth instance of the verb in the original text (that is not shown in the NWT main text) says "and will be appointed times of nations". Irrespective of whether the verse is stating that Jerusalem was already being trampled (as you are contending), it does not alter the fact that verse does not allow for the "appointed times of the nations" to already have begun.
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scholar
Jeffro
Jeremiah foretold that as stated in 25:12 that after the fulfillment of the seventy years namely 537 that judgement would befall the King of Babylon and that nation even the land of Chaldea. What was the form of that judgement or calling to account by Jehovah? The remainder of that verse says that the land would become a desolate place. Again in verse 13 attention is drawn to the land all of the things spoken by Jeremiah against ALL of the nations. Then in verse 14 as a summary of judgement Jeremiah unites the kingship with the respective nations in the judgement oracle, Beginning with Judah from verse 17 the oracle judgement was prophesied against all of the surrounding nations. This can only mean that Babylon's judgement after the expiration of the seventy years was of desolation and devastation against Babylon similar to what had happened to Judah and was only possible after Babylon's Fall in 539.
Josephus was a valid witness and historian for Jewish history and his record of matters confirms the biblical seventy year texts that the exile lasted for seventy years from the destruction of the city and temple until the release of the Jews under Cyrus. He described the state of the land as a desert so his presentation of matters agree with our history and not with armchair historians such as apostates and modern critics. He does not compete with Jeremiah because he does not use the language of Jeremiah namely,'without an inhabitant' but his description of the land agrees with the metaphors used by Jeremiah.
In fact, the phrase or expression 'without an inhabitant' or similar words is indeed frequent to Jeremiah associated with Jehovah's judgement against the people and the land. The pronoun 'them' in the latter part of 25:9 clearly refers to Judah and in verse 10 but the initial use of 'them' in verse 9 refers to Babylon. It is not going beyond what the Bible says about the expression 'without an inhabitant' and its duration because Jeremiah equates this with the desolation of Judah and its people as judgement of seventy years. Your problem is that the seventy years destroys your chronology and cannot fit your interpretation so as with the Jonsson nonsense, it is best ignored or trivialised. The correct understanding of the seventy years distinguishes WT chronology from the secular, demonic chronologies of this world that ignores Jehovah's dealings with his people, our chronology promotes the fulfillment of prophecy both historically and in the modern day.
Yes, those modern day fulfillments did happen suddenly and with great force upon the calm and serene words prior to 1914 and the world has never recovered since, reeling from woes upon woes right up to the present. The Spanish Flu killed more people in a year than the Black Death of the Middle Ages killed in a century and this pandemic was the worst plague in history as it fulfilled the 'deadly plaque' described in Revelation 6:8. The continuation of wars since then along with various epidemics and pandemics, earthquakes etc all fulfill Bible prophecy that we are living in the End Times.
Regarding Luke 21:24 the renderin shows that the trampling of Jerusalem and the appointed times of the nations both had a past commencement with a contination in the 1st century with a future fulfillment from the 1st century perspective completed in 1914. The tense and verbal aspect of the Greek prove that absolutely.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
Jeremiah foretold that as stated in 25:12 that after the fulfillment of the seventy years namely 537 that judgement would befall the King of Babylon and that nation even the land of Chaldea. What was the form of that judgement or calling to account by Jehovah? The remainder of that verse says that the land would become a desolate place. Again in verse 13 attention is drawn to the land all of the things spoken by Jeremiah against ALL of the nations. Then in verse 14 as a summary of judgement Jeremiah unites the kingship with the respective nations in the judgement oracle, Beginning with Judah from verse 17 the oracle judgement was prophesied against all of the surrounding nations. This can only mean that Babylon's judgement after the expiration of the seventy years was of desolation and devastation against Babylon similar to what had happened to Judah and was only possible after Babylon's Fall in 539.
Indeed, what was the form of judgement? The verse clearly states that Babylon and its king would be called to account, which was quite clearly indicated by the "writing on the wall". This obviously began in 539 because it was at that time that the king was literally called to account, and after that, there was no Babylonian king. That Babylon became desolate following the events of 539 is not in dispute.
Josephus was a valid witness and historian for Jewish history and his record of matters confirms the biblical seventy year texts that the exile lasted for seventy years from the destruction of the city and temple until the release of the Jews under Cyrus. He described the state of the land as a desert so his presentation of matters agree with our history and not with armchair historians such as apostates and modern critics. He does not compete with Jeremiah because he does not use the language of Jeremiah namely,'without an inhabitant' but his description of the land agrees with the metaphors used by Jeremiah.
Josephus got his records of the period largely from Babylonian records that the Society holds as being unreliable. Again, Jeremiah at no time says that Judah would be "without an inhabitant" for seventy years, or for any other specific period.
In fact, the phrase or expression 'without an inhabitant' or similar words is indeed frequent to Jeremiah associated with Jehovah's judgement against the people and the land. The pronoun 'them' in the latter part of 25:9 clearly refers to Judah and in verse 10 but the initial use of 'them' in verse 9 refers to Babylon. It is not going beyond what the Bible says about the expression 'without an inhabitant' and its duration because Jeremiah equates this with the desolation of Judah and its people as judgement of seventy years. Your problem is that the seventy years destroys your chronology and cannot fit your interpretation so as with the Jonsson nonsense, it is best ignored or trivialised. The correct understanding of the seventy years distinguishes WT chronology from the secular, demonic chronologies of this world that ignores Jehovah's dealings with his people, our chronology promotes the fulfillment of prophecy both historically and in the modern day.
The "them" being referred to in the section you are lying about is quite clearly "all the families of the north" and "all these nations round about", as is easily understood by any honest person with basic reading comprehension skills. The unambiguous wording in Jeremiah 25 makes it clear that the 70 years (even if we allow you to ignore its purpose and application) could not have ended any later than when Babylon began to be called to account, starting with judgement of its king in 539.
Yes, those modern day fulfillments did happen suddenly and with great force upon the calm and serene words prior to 1914 and the world has never recovered since, reeling from woes upon woes right up to the present. The Spanish Flu killed more people in a year than the Black Death of the Middle Ages killed in a century and this pandemic was the worst plague in history as it fulfilled the 'deadly plaque' described in Revelation 6:8. The continuation of wars since then along with various epidemics and pandemics, earthquakes etc all fulfill Bible prophecy that we are living in the End Times.
You are completely ignoring the fact that these supposed modern fulfilments were supposed to happen in October. October is very important in Society doctrines: Adam's creation, Noah's entry into the ark, Jerusalem's destruction, Babylon's fall, Jesus' birth & baptism; so you can't claim just any event in the whole year of 1914 as fulfilling the Society's prophecies, it had to be something occuring with "suddenness and great force not long after October 1914" (The Watchtower, 15 May 1911). Nothing happened with great suddenness on time at all. And it wasn't the case that the world was "calm and serene", all beer and skittles, until suddenly World War I started anyway. The underlying religious and political issues that triggered the outbreak of the war already existed. There were wars, earthquakes, epidemics etc before and after World War I, and they have not increased in severity relative to population growths and densities.
Regarding Luke 21:24 the renderin shows that the trampling of Jerusalem and the appointed times of the nations both had a past commencement with a contination in the 1st century with a future fulfillment from the 1st century perspective completed in 1914. The tense and verbal aspect of the Greek prove that absolutely.
It is irrelevant what the "renderin" shows. It is the original text that is important, and it does not allow for the interpretation that the period had already begun. It won't make it true no matter how many times you say it.
Well at least you've passed your Ministry School "redundant repetition for boring your audience to death" topic anyway.
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scholar
Jeffro
No, that judgement was well described by Jeremiah as the judgement for the nations was similar to that of Judah and that was that that nation would become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, without an inhabitant. The judgement against Babylon is described in detail by Jeremiah in the following verses: Jeremiah 51:29,37,62. Later on Daniel residing in Babylon interpreted the handwriting on the wall which sated the soon to realized fact that Babylon would be conguered by the Medo-Persians in 539 which certainly began the Fall of Babylon but not its destruction which was not fulfilled until much further time elapsed according to Jeremiah.
Josephus compiled his history from many sources and as you say correctly he did not use the Jeremaiac phrase 'without an inhabitant' but he described it as a desert and that the seventy years spanned from the destruction of Jerusalem until the Return under Cyrus. Jeremiah used this curse description seven or eight times in reference to Judah.
The word 'them' refers not only to the 'families of the north' in the first instance but to those nations including Judah in the latter instance as a result of invasion by Babylon. All of the surrounding nations including Judah would become subject to Babylonian domination and in the case of Judah a period of seventy years meant servitude-exile-desolation. The seventy years meant primarily the desolation of the land as foretold by Leviticus and Deuteronomy which was confirmed by Daniel and Ezra and Josephus and this could not have ended in 539 as the exiles had not then returned and populated the land. The seventy years only ended at the time of Cyrus when he permitted by decree the return of the captives to the land in 537 as confirmed by Ezra and Josephus.
Your ridicule of 1914, its aftermath and the fulfillment of the composite Sign during this period is not worthy of my attention. I leave you alone on this subject as you are free to choose how the last century should be interpreted.
Regarding Luke 21:24 the original Greek does not support your amateurish exegesis, I recommend that you consult the commentaries which will assist you in this matter and you will find that our interpretation is sound in that what Jesus was describing began in the past-present-future.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
No, that judgement was well described by Jeremiah as the judgement for the nations was similar to that of Judah and that was that that nation would become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, without an inhabitant. The judgement against Babylon is described in detail by Jeremiah in the following verses: Jeremiah 51:29,37,62. Later on Daniel residing in Babylon interpreted the handwriting on the wall which sated the soon to realized fact that Babylon would be conguered by the Medo-Persians in 539 which certainly began the Fall of Babylon but not its destruction which was not fulfilled until much further time elapsed according to Jeremiah.
You continue with this "without an inhabitant" stuff with reference to Jeremiah 25, but the expression simply doesn't appear there, and Jeremiah only ever uses the expression without any reference to any specific length of time. That Judah or any place would be "without an inhabitant" for an unknown period of time has no bearing on the significance of the seventy years, which are clearly indicated by Jeremiah to be bein a period of Babylonian supremacy. Yes, 539 BEGAN the Fall of Babylon, when its king was CALLED TO ACCOUNT, which was specifically foretold by Jeremiah as an event that would occur only once the seventy years had been fulfilled. You'll need to find someone more gullible and naive to convince about your incorrect interpretations.
Josephus compiled his history from many sources and as you say correctly he did not use the Jeremaiac phrase 'without an inhabitant' but he described it as a desert and that the seventy years spanned from the destruction of Jerusalem until the Return under Cyrus. Jeremiah used this curse description seven or eight times in reference to Judah.
Neither did Jeremiah make any reference to Judah being "without an inhabitant" for seventy years.
The word 'them' refers not only to the 'families of the north' in the first instance but to those nations including Judah in the latter instance as a result of invasion by Babylon. All of the surrounding nations including Judah would become subject to Babylonian domination and in the case of Judah a period of seventy years meant servitude-exile-desolation. The seventy years meant primarily the desolation of the land as foretold by Leviticus and Deuteronomy which was confirmed by Daniel and Ezra and Josephus and this could not have ended in 539 as the exiles had not then returned and populated the land. The seventy years only ended at the time of Cyrus when he permitted by decree the return of the captives to the land in 537 as confirmed by Ezra and Josephus.
The verses do not indicate separate fulfilments for Judah and the rest of the nations in verses 8 to 11. They are all included together, and the seventy years is applied to nations being subject to Babylon. It was not the return on the Jews that marked the end of the seventy years, as Jeremiah clearly indicated.
Your ridicule of 1914, its aftermath and the fulfillment of the composite Sign during this period is not worthy of my attention. I leave you alone on this subject as you are free to choose how the last century should be interpreted.
LOL. More like you have no valid answer for why nothing actually happened for the supposed October fulfilment.
Regarding Luke 21:24 the original Greek does not support your amateurish exegesis, I recommend that you consult the commentaries which will assist you in this matter and you will find that our interpretation is sound in that what Jesus was describing began in the past-present-future.
LOL. You contest my ability to compare one Greek word with the same Greek word in the same verse, yet you have shown many times on this forum that your ability to even use English is not so good.
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jgnat
As a dedicated reader, I look for clarity. Since scholar considers my request for clarity as "foolish" and not worth bothering over, I won't bother with any more of Scholar's posts.
Unless, of course, he says something very funny. His malapropisms are the best.
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scholar
Jeffro
The phrase 'without an inhabitant' does not occur in chapter 25 but this phrase is frequently elsewhere in Jeremiah combined with other curse expressions which are all used to illustrate the devasatated and depopulated state of Judah during the once only critical period of its history form the Fall to the Return as described by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Josephus.
Jeremiah's use of the seventy years was not a period of Babylonian supremacy but a period of exile, desolation and servitude to Babylon as he describes in ch 25. The calling to account of the king of Babylon could not have taken place in 539 because the period of seventy years was not fulfilled. Jeremiah quite clearly states in verse 12 that after the seventy years had been fulfilled then the Babylonian king would be called to account, How? that very verse describes the desolation of Babylon would occur similar to the fate of Judah and this did not occur in 539.
Your interpretation is simply one of the higher critic who seeks to rob the seventy years of any historical and theological significance removing any intervention by God into man's affairs.
Josephus uses the seventy years as a description of a desert, deportation and depopulation which nicely describes the state of exile-servitude-desolation as I have long advanced. Carl Jonsson has madea somewhat similar observation by noting that Josephus uses the seventy years to refer to a period slavery, captivity,desolation extending from destruction of Jerusalem until the first year of Cyrus. I agree with you that the verses 9-11 involve the nations and apply to the nations but Judah is the main focus as shown by first 24 chapters of his prophecy and the opening two verses of the chapter 25.
In regard to 1914 Ido have a reply to your ridicule but I cannot be bothered with you on this matter. Again you raise the matter of Luke 21:24 without any research an make dogmatic assertions about something you are ignorant of, so please do some homework and then we will talk the talk about this critical passage.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
The phrase 'without an inhabitant' does not occur in chapter 25 but this phrase is frequently elsewhere in Jeremiah combined with other curse expressions which are all used to illustrate the devasatated and depopulated state of Judah during the once only critical period of its history form the Fall to the Return as described by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Josephus.
There is absolutely no reason to conclude that "without an inhabitant" refers to the seventy years in its entirety, mainly because Jeremiah never says that it does. The fact that Jeremiah 52 states that an additional 745 people were exiled 5 years after Jerusalem's fall indicates that Judah was indeed not "without an inhabitant" at that time. (The imaginary excuse that these were Jews who had fled to other areas is unevidenced wishful thinking.)Jeremiah's use of the seventy years was not a period of Babylonian supremacy but a period of exile, desolation and servitude to Babylon as he describes in ch 25. The calling to account of the king of Babylon could not have taken place in 539 because the period of seventy years was not fulfilled. Jeremiah quite clearly states in verse 12 that after the seventy years had been fulfilled then the Babylonian king would be called to account, How? that very verse describes the desolation of Babylon would occur similar to the fate of Judah and this did not occur in 539.
This is 'cart before the horse' thinking. All sources, including the Society, acknowledge that the king of Babylon was indeed called to account in 539, when the succession of Babylonian kings ended, and was dramatically indicated by events in Daniel chapter 5. It is painfully stupid that you deny that the king of Babylon was called to account at this time because "TEKEL" means 'called to account'. At that time, the kingdom of Babylon was divided among the Medes and Persians. It ceased to be the Babylonian empire, and there is no possible way for Babylon as a nation to be judged after that. To suggest that the king could not have been called to account yet because an interpretation says the seventy years hadn't ended yet is bombastically stupid, and only serves to prove that such an interpretation is flawed. The event unavoidably constricts the end of the seventy years to that time.
Your interpretation is simply one of the higher critic who seeks to rob the seventy years of any historical and theological significance removing any intervention by God into man's affairs.
My interpretation is one that fits the facts and is in complete harmony with the scriptures, without any illogical reckoning of when Babylon's king was called to account.
Josephus uses the seventy years as a description of a desert, deportation and depopulation which nicely describes the state of exile-servitude-desolation as I have long advanced. Carl Jonsson has madea somewhat similar observation by noting that Josephus uses the seventy years to refer to a period slavery, captivity,desolation extending from destruction of Jerusalem until the first year of Cyrus. I agree with you that the verses 9-11 involve the nations and apply to the nations but Judah is the main focus as shown by first 24 chapters of his prophecy and the opening two verses of the chapter 25.
chorbah means 'a place that is becoming desolate'. It simply doesn't require depopulation. If you had not been indoctrinated with JW dogma, you would also likely see the clear logic of the situation. By your interpretation of the seventy years at Jeremiah 25:12, all of the inhabitants of all of the nations that came under the Babylon empire were all completely depopulated and sent to Babylon. This is known not to be true, which further indicates your interpretation of the seventy years to be incorrect.
In regard to 1914 Ido have a reply to your ridicule but I cannot be bothered with you on this matter. Again you raise the matter of Luke 21:24 without any research an make dogmatic assertions about something you are ignorant of, so please do some homework and then we will talk the talk about this critical passage.
It is unlikely that you would have any reply that I have not yet considered the merits of and found deficient. To be honest, you aren't much of a debater, and I may not bother replying for a little while, at least maybe until you come up with something actually worthy of a reply instead your tiresome repetition.