by defd 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
honestyThis thread was not intented for a trinity debate if you read through the whole thread. It is about UNDERSTANDING scriptures accurately by means of context.
I agree, defd. Now, if only the WTBTS could accept it too. Why aren't you on the GB? Oh yeah, I forgot..... you have a brain that you use and are dangerous to them.
honesty thats a good one
All end up revealed as one in mutual indwelling.
Narkissos....Ahhh, sounds like the Pleroma to me!
sounds like the Pleroma to me!
Doesn't it just, though?
This topic is a crock of poopoo. Jesus wasnt implying anything. He stated quite plainly that he and his father are one. It has nothing to do with the trinity issue. Read the whole chapter for goodness sake!
Josie
I can leave the trinity out of this and show you why it is true that Jesus was indeed claiming to be equal to God, in fact, this is part of the intent of John writing his gospel. There are seven times in this gospel when Jesus uses 'I Am' in the same terminology (in greek) as Yahweh used in Exodus 3.14 and other places. This is exactly why the JWs use the deceptive wording in their version of the Bible. They do the same thing at the end of John 9 with the word 'obeisance' inserted in place of 'worship'.
Let me show you the word study for one of these 'I Am' Statements:
John 8.24 (Literal)
24. |2036| I said |3767| Therefore, |5213| to you |3754| that |0599| you will die |1722| in |3588| the |0266| sins |5216| of you! |1437| if |1063| For |3361| not |4100| you believe |3754| that |1473| I |1510| AM, |0599| you will die |1722| in |3588| the |0266| sins |5216| of you!
(I) Strong's Ref. # 1473
Romanized ego
Pronounced eg-o'
a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic): KJV--I, me. For the other cases and the plural see GSN1691, GSN1698, GSN1700, GSN2248, GSN2249, GSN2254, N2257, etc.
What are the implications by the WBTS changing scripture and teaching what they know to be false doctrine? Assuming Christianity is the true faith, then they are responsible for sending people to Hell! Jesus is telling the Jews that He is God and "if you don't believe it you are dead in your sins", that means Hell or separation from God!
"Ego eimi" is the same "I Am" that we see in Exodus 3.14, 'Hayah' is the hebrew word.
(I AM)
Strong's Ref. # 1961
Romanized hayah
Pronounced haw-yaw
a primitive root [compare HSN1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): KJV--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.
Let me show you the usage in John 9: 1-5, where we see two different meanings of 'I am':
Joh 9.5: |3752| When |1722| in |3588| the |2889| world |5600| I am, |5457| {the} Light |1510| I am |3588| of the |2889| world.
This is the normal use of 'I am' by any person, 'as long as I am in the world':
(I am)
Strong's Ref. # 5600
Romanized o
Pronounced o
including the oblique forms, as well as es {ace}; e {ay}; etc.; the subjunctive of GSN1510; (may, might, can, could, would, should, must, etc.; also with GSN1487 and its comparative, as well as with other particles) be: KJV--+ appear, are, (may, might, should) be, X have, is, + pass the flower of her age, should stand, were.
Now, here is the version of 'I Am' that is the equivilant of Jesus calling Himself 'Yahweh' or 'I AM':
(AM)
Strong's Ref. # 1510
Romanized eimi
Pronounced i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I EXIST (used only when emphatic): KJV--am, have been, X it is I, was. See also GSN1488, GSN1498, GSN1511, GSN1527, GSN2258, GSN2071, GSN2070, GSN2075, GSN2076, GSN2771, GSN2468, GSN5600.
'Ego Eimi' is used in the book of John seven times to show that the Christ did indeed claim to be equal to God. 'That which is begotten of God is God' is where we see Jesus described as the only begotten son of God. 'Begotten' does not mean 'created'. The Watchtower changes scripture in over 300 places to fit their view of Jesus as something less than God. They revive heresies that began in the apostolic age, despite all of the obvious abilities that Jesus displayed as deity, God incarnate. Jesus displayed a dual nature as he is God and He is man. This is what scripture reveals. Can anyone explain it? No. Yet it is revealed, just as the tri-unity is revealed (but we aren't proving that here).
So we have Scripture, apocrypha and tradition all describing Jesus as calling Himself God. There is no doubt that He believed and claimed to be God, equal to God and the Jews ultimately had Him executed for these claims.
Rex
I've come across dozens and dozens of "Jesus is God" people (both Sabellians and Trinitarians) that shove John 10:30 in my face to prove Jesus is God.
JWs counter by saying that later, in the same evening, Jesus prayed that his disciples be one also. They also counter that Jesus is the image, reflection of the Father, and a "God" in his own right. Careful: Opinion Stated Next: I don't see how anybody could read any gospel, let alone John's, and find Jesus to be 100% man and 100% God. But a billion or so persons earthwide do. Go figure.
I think a good "clue" on what he meant can be found in the 17th chapter:
21 That they all may be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Personally, I do not believe in the trinity. But just to be fair.. I think that whether someone believes in the trinity or not might greatly depend on which bible version one uses.
I really enjoyed and agreed with the comments by hellrider, Narkissos, and OldSoul. Good stuff.
If you have ever experienced a deep one-ness with a person, it is not the kind of relationship you can delineate onto paper. It is more like marriage than a business venture.
I think that Jesus was saying that he and the Father were so closely identified, it was like an amalgamation. To see Jesus was to see the Father. To know him was to know the Father. To hear him was to hear the Father. Thus, worshiping Christ is understood as also worshiping the Father.
defd, I don't have any issue with the rule of using context... but I don't recall the word "context" appearing in the Bible, so how is it that you feel so strongly about it as a method? Seriously, using context isn't a JW-originated method; the method for JWs is to follow whatever new light comes from the GB, likeit or not. If using context were a method for JWs, they could all use their Bibles and "get it" for themselves, and the WTS would be obsolete... because the context doesn't vacillate.
bebu
