Jesus as Manager and Founder of Christianity

by jgnat 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Narkissos

  Mark 14:28. But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."
  
  That was Jesus' instructions to the disciples. The disciples lack of faith made them slow to act on these words; they did not leave for Galilee until Jesus had repeatedly appeared to them in Jerusalem. Any first year seminary student with a half decent study Bible can figure this one out.

  I doubt he still could with more than "a half decent study Bible".

  Why does Luke (contrarily to Matthew 26:32) omit the Markan saying about Galilee and has Jesus insist instead that the disciples stay in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33,47,52; Acts 1:4: "he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem") -- which was so obviously necessary for his Pentecost story?

  (This is a complimentary answer.)
• 

  Shining One

  Jgnat,
  If you are going to make ignorant statements please do cite the scriptures. So, it is not only scripture that you question you now tell us that Jesus sinned? LOL ...and you are calling yourself a 'Christian'?
  
  >Jesus broke the Sabbath on two occassions. His disciples grabbed some grain from the field,
  
  Did He not point to the occasion of Kind David and his men gathering food to eat on the sabbath?
  
  >and he healed on the Sabbath.
  
  So the pharisees were right, they kept (their interpretation) letter of the law and Jesus (as God/man) sinned and broke the law that He (as God) established? If you don't believe the Christ is sinless you are in a ridiculously contradictory position!
  
  >The Pharisees called him on it, and he replied that the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath. In other words, God can ride over these other rules any time he wants. Because he's God.
  
  Jesus is the 'sabbath rest': His coming was clearly revealed to them and the signs were there, the pharisees refused to believe and attributed Jesus' miracles to Beelzebub. They incurred the unforgivable sin.
  
  >What bible are you reading?
  
  It doesn't matter what Bible you or I read, you don't believe it and you also don't have the foggiest idea of Christian doctrine. Did you get the 'speak in the forest joke'? LOL
  Rex
• 

  Shining One

  >Why does Luke (contrarily to Matthew 26:32) omit the Markan saying about Galilee and has Jesus insist instead that the disciples stay in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33,47,52; Acts 1:4: "he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem") -- which was so obviously necessary for his Pentecost story?
  
  These are three different writers, three different purposes to their gospels, three different sources. The fact that they are different is a passive evidence for their veracity. You see contradiction because you simply want to believe that way. If you had studied the matter in depth you would not even ask the question. Internet intellect is not in any way scholarship.
  Rex
• 

  jgnat

  It's getting harder to wade through your insults to the meat of your argument.

  In this instance, we are arguing the same side. Of course Jesus could break the Sabbath, because He wrote it. So you can KEEP your letters of the law. I'll stick to the higher principles, which always override.
• 

  Shining One

  jgnat,
  I have decided to simply stop this discussion. I can no longer discuss anything with you without the danger of being perceived as an unloving person. I have much to dispute but I do not want to 'win the battle, but lose the war'. You are not my enemy no more than anyone else here is. My enemy is unseen and he resides in the 'high places' of the spiritual realm. My prayer is that you turn from what you have been taught and look at the other side of the coin: give God's word the benefit of the doubt! Go on loving people in your way but please analyze whether or not love is not sometimes shown in discipline and warning. May God bless you and may your husband be led from the Watchtower.
  Rex
• 

  Narkissos

  These are three different writers, three different purposes to their gospels, three different sources.

  I have absolutely no problem with that.

  The fact that they are different is a passive evidence for their veracity. You see contradiction because you simply want to believe that way.

  Here the problem lies in the word "veracity":

  - If it implies in any way "historical" then the abovementioned contradiction (as well as scores of others) is fatal.

  - If it means "candidly reporting an unchecked source" it does not do justice to the writers' skills: "Luke" has conscientiously made Jerusalem the focus of his Gospel, as reflected in its whole literary construction and the connection with Acts. He certainly didn't drop the Galilean mention by accident.

  - If it means building a partly traditional, partly fictional story while sincerely aiming at different theological purposes, I fully agree. And I wish to add: there is nothing wrong with that. Biblical apologists have cornered themselves by (1) conceding the most virulent Bible critics that it would be wrong and then (2) trying to argue that since it would be wrong it cannot be true. Blind or suicidal strategy if you ask me.

  If you had studied the matter in depth you would not even ask the question.

  See how easy it is to corner oneself with a "if".

  Internet intellect is not in any way scholarship.

  Indeed.

  Btw, nice move in your last answer to jgnat. Drop the crusader's armor for a while and you'll both learn and help a lot more.
• 

  TD

  Jesus broke the Sabbath on two occassions. His disciples grabbed some grain from the field, and he healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees called him on it, and he replied that the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath. In other words, God can ride over these other rules any time he wants. Because he's God. What bible are you reading?

  With respect, jgnat, The prohibition of work on the Sabbath was never recognized as being monolithic in application. Sabbath law may be rendered either dechuya (suspended) or hutra (abrogated) by the circumstances pertaining to the work. One of the classic examples from Rabbic literature is the collapse of an occupied building on the Sabbath. The backbreaking task of clearing the rubble in search of survivors is "work" by any definition of the word. Yet it is not "prohibited" work. Jesus did not arbitrarily break the Sabbath simply because he (allegedly) could. In both of the instances you cite, Jesus not only gave reasons that were perfectly viable within halacha, he cited precedent as well. Tom
• 

  onacruse

  
  
  jgnat, you know the respect I have for you--you state an opinion, openly and honestly, and subsequently do your best to defend your position. Sometimes that is a good thing for a person to do--and sometimes it's a self-decieving effort. May your self-honesty continue to protect you from the pitfalls into which many, including myself, have fallen.

  I'll not hash words, or Biblical quotes, about the arguments in favor of Jesus Christ that you make...there are many worthy aspects in the life and words of Jesus, even if they did not originate with him.

  However, Jesus as a "manager" of Christianity?

  Well, call me simple, but if Jesus showed up on a construction site, and managed the project the way he has "managed" Christianity, he'd be fired so fast that he wouldn't even have to bother asking about his termination check.

  Just my 2 cents.

  Respectfully,

  Craig
• 

  jgnat

  TD, I understand. Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, though, by the Pharisess, no?

  Onacruse, boss man, how do you view his management of the dozen? Do you believe he was similarly inept there?
• 

  jgnat

  ...and I say boss man with the deepest respect. It's the diminutive I give my favorite bosses at work.