Jesus as Manager and Founder of Christianity

by jgnat 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Narkissos

  TD,

  The prohibition of work on the Sabbath was never recognized as being monolithic in application. Sabbath law may be rendered either dechuya (suspended) or hutra (abrogated) by the circumstances pertaining to the work. One of the classic examples from Rabbic literature is the collapse of an occupied building on the Sabbath. The backbreaking task of clearing the rubble in search of survivors is "work" by any definition of the word. Yet it is not "prohibited" work. Jesus did not arbitrarily break the Sabbath simply because he (allegedly) could. In both of the instances you cite, Jesus not only gave reasons that were perfectly viable within halacha, he cited precedent as well.

  You are correct as to rabbinical interpretation. However, where do we get the idea that Jesus had any conflict with the "Pharisees" regarding the sabbath in the first place? From the Gospels, which happen to misrepresent the Pharisaic stance as an overly strict one and then ascribe the actual moderate Pharisaic stance to "Jesus," making him appear more humane etc. Moreover, "Jesus"' argument repeatedly implies that he is above the law (as "lord of the sabbath," Mark 2:28//, or "greater than the temple," Matthew 12:6). John clearly states that to "the Jews" Jesus is "breaking the sabbath" (5:18). Similarly, on the issue of ritually unclean food, "Jesus"' argument does not imply that "this food is not unclean" but that "there is no unclean food" (Mark 7//, note v. 19).

  Bottom line: this is a purely fictional conflict, reflecting the anti-legalistic, and, more generally, anti-Jewish stance of hellenistic Christian circles with some knowledge of late 1st-century Pharisaic halakha. As a historical account it would make no sense, since as you pointed out the Pharisees did not hold the view which the Gospel ascribe to them (not to mention that the Pharisees were certainly not that influential before 70 AD). It is a strawman argument.
• 

  garybuss

  To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man, not to closely followed by those who claimed Him. His moral teaching-most excellent. (Bill Wilson, Bill's story, AA Big Book, Page 11)
  
  
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  jgnat

  not too closely followed by those who claimed Him

  I'd go along with that, Gary. By the way, my schizophrenic son is just finishing a banner year. He has no new police charges, is staying in a government-sponsored men's residence, and is taking PRESCRIPTION medication for his condition for the first time. Oh, yes, he calls me once a week and took me out to dinner for my birthday. All in all a GREAT year.
• 

  garybuss

  My son is stable and I believe is still under a commitment in another state. I understand he takes medicine, lives independently, and is monitored by social workers a couple times a week. He has shunned and snubbed me since I put the first hold on him in January of 1995.
  Glad your son is doing good. That's good news. Hope it continues.
  
  
• 

  onacruse

  Well now, jgnat, your last inquiry to me requires that I indulge in a bit of reading between the lines...after all, the Bible itself leaves me minimal options in that regard.

  Let's start with the Biblical statement that one of the 12 was known ("from the beginning," according to the Biblical account) to be a thief, and ultimately, the betrayer of Jesus. What did Jesus do about His knowledge of this? Nothing. One mark against Jesus, as a leader of men.

  His apostles were constantly vying with each other for his attention, and only after years of seeing this did Jesus say anything about it...and even then, his upbraiding was rather on the level of a tired old man trying to tell his children that they should behave themselves. Another mark against Jesus as a leader of men.

  And, after his demise, these apostles abandoned him faster than a fish can slip out of your hands. Such loyalty he engendered, such passionate devotion, such commitment. Another mark against Jesus.

  And, then, after his "resurrection," what? More infighting: Antioch and Jerusalem, and Paul against the governing body-- major power struggles, any of which threatened the existence of the Christian Empire. Where was Jesus in all this? Leaderless, and another mark against Jesus.

  The "catholic" church attempts to wind all these power struggles together, under its control, with minimal effect. If Jesus ever intended that the world should really have a "catholic" religion, then his failure to accomplish this is yet another mark against him.

  And then, along comes the Constantine, and by a wave of his political hand, makes the Christian religion the law of the world.

  It seems to me that Constantine was much more a "leader" of men than Jesus ever was.

  Craig

  PS: I took no offense at your description of me as a "boss"...well, maybe, a little, but I take your meaning.
• 

  jgnat

  Maaan, I sit here, chuckling at my screen! Your list of administrative failures is impressive and really, I have no defence! Umm, maybe, he was working with an immature lot to begin with? Boss, boss, boss. I'm the big boss lady now. What's been particularly gratifying for me is that my former subordinates keep in touch to get advice and support. They like me, they trust me, and they want to learn from me. Perhaps I selectively chose from the "ideal" I had built from the bible account, when I used Christ as the model for my management style?

  If Jesus ever intended that the world should really have a "catholic" religion

  I'd put that administrative adjustment firmly in Constantine's lap. It irks me that JW's paint Constantine as a scheming, pagan interfere-er. From what I have read, the Christians were in shambles after the years of persecution. They had lots of practice being martyrs, but very little practice in getting along or getting organized. I agree Constantine was a very able administrator who saw the flaws and facilitated the meetings needed to repair the rift.
• 

  LittleToe

  Craig:
  Jgnat spoke of the Twelve. By that score you can't include Paul through to Constantine, or anyone since

  Personally I know of few folks that would die for their manager, and office politics are the norm. SO what have ya got against Jesus' management style???
• 

  TD

  Hi Narkissos

  I mostly agree.

  Moreover, "Jesus"' argument repeatedly implies that he is above the law (as "lord of the sabbath," Mark 2:28//, or "greater than the temple," Matthew 12:6). John clearly states that to "the Jews" Jesus is "breaking the sabbath" (5:18).

  Yes, the implication is certainly there and to me, it seems to be one that conservative Christians particularly favor. However in this “conflict” Jesus position (As you point out) is actually more reflective of mainstream Judaism than anything else and as a result, the “dispute” takes the form not of whether the Sabbath should be kept, (Jesus as above the Law) but of how it should be kept. (Jesus as arbiter of the Law)

  This seemed to me to add rather than subtract for jgnat’s initial point. A manager that breaks a rule because he or she can is altogether different than a manger with a better grasp of the intricacies of when the rule does and doesn’t apply. The former is little more than a hypocrite who abuses their power.
• 

  jgnat

  Hey, TD, thanks!

  manger with a better grasp of the intricacies of when the rule does and doesn’t apply
• 

  onacruse

  LT:

  Jgnat spoke of the Twelve. By that score you can't include Paul through to Constantine, or anyone since

  Well, let's just think about that. The Bible itself asserts that Jesus made a personal visit to Paul, even so far as to speak to him directly (my gosh, what a concept, that a manager should issue direct instructions to a subordinate). And that same Bible says that, by the power of Jesus, Paul was selected to replace the nefarious Judas. Sounds like an official corporate move to me...the results of which call into question the judgment of of the CEO.

  And then Constantine: Saw a cross in the sky, and took it as a sign from Jesus. Well now, if Jesus had eyes to see that, and a brain to know how it would affect this powerful leader, then He certainly could have contravened with another sign, so as to redirect the course of humanity. The silence thereon is deafening.

  Personally I know of few folks that would die for their manager...

  I'm sure glad I don't work for any of the companies which you describe. LOL