What do you beleive?

by Ragnar1211 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • Robert K Stock
    Robert K Stock

    I was a true believer in God and the Bible and a devout Jehovah's Witness for many years.

    I have come to understand that the supernatural does not exist. The most logical scenario for me is evolution with no intelligent design.

    I believe that truth only exists in science. If something exists it must be measured and tested with repeatable results. Anything else is a fairytale.

    Jesus was a nice Jewish boy who became terribly confused.

    I am not harsh on believers since I was one myself. If others are willing to listen I will explain why all religion is bunk. I have no desire to convert anyone who is happy in his superstition. It wouldn't work anyway.

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    chrissy said:

    Well, we are in orbit. Circling the sun at about 30 km or 18 miles per second

    It's more like an eliptical orbit, but at least you put it better than the Watchtower writer:

    ***

    gm chap. 8 p. 98 Science: Has It Proved the Bible Wrong? ***

    In 1613 the Italian scientist Galileo published a work known as "Letters on Sunspots." In it, he presented evidence that the earth rotates around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth.

    (bold, color added by me)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The earth rotates on its axis; it revolves around the sun.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The modern age of science began in 1543 when Nicholas Copernicus, a Polish Canon, published his epochal On the Revolution of the Celestial Orbs. The popular view is that Copernicus "discovered" that the earth revolves around the sun. Actually, the notion is at least as old as the ancient Greeks. -- excerpt from webpage titled The Galileo Affair. http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/GalileoAffair.html

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    welcome to the board ragnar,

    1) Who is the creator of the universe?

    the data suggests that there most likely was not one. this doesn't mean that there conclusively was not one. but it also does not mean that the probability split is equally 50/50 down the middle. parsimony and economy of explanation favour the idea that there was no creator of the universe. and if you look into scientific method, you will find that the rule of parsimony is an important feature in dealing with unfalsifiables, or un discoverables. of course, since no creator has shown itself yet, it seems like the mystery will continue on for us. us humans, who have been an extremely small fraction of life in the grand natural history of this planet.

    as far as biological diversity is concerned, the evidence is overwhelming that god did not tinker with anything to get it as it is. however, if some god/alien scientist from another dimension did create the universe (and subsequent bio-diversity here on earth), it is pretty obvious that she/he/it would be more of a computer programmer than a blueprint engineer/designer.

    2) Why are we here, where are we going?

    we are here so that our genomes may survive, plain and simple. to look for a larger meaning to it all, may be fun and emotionally comforting, but there is simply no real evidence that would suggest that we should be looking farther than what we have already been observing for millenia.

    we are the expression of our genes. we fit in the world so well, not because some god "designed" us, but because these computer programs are concerned with one thing: survival.

    we are not going anywhere. if we are to understand this, we must understand evolution and see ourselves in the light of evolution as the animals that we are. evolution has no grand plan, no pinnacle. our ancestors will probably look and behave pretty differently from us a 100 000 years from now.

    "we", doesn't really mean anything in light of evolution. "we" are not what's important. our genomes are what's important.

    3) Why do we grow old and die?

    technically? our cells stop rejuvinating/replicating themselves. the chemical factories stop producing, or are hijacked by other systems. either parts of us start to die, or the whole of us, or both.

    but in the larger picture of natural cumulative selection, if it were not for death, there most likely would be no life on earth, or i should say, not much life diversity like we see it now. death, and birth, in nature, allow our genomes to mutate. genomes mutate whether we like it or not, but when the earth changes drastically, or even locally, certain mutations are better able to cope and help the organism (us) survive. if there were no death, then how would we adapt to the earth or other environmental pressures that arise? how would there be any biological diversity. i dare say that we would still be single celled organisms. or, more likely considering the amount of change our earth has gone through in the last 3 billion years, the long forgotten shadows of single celled organisms who could not mutate their code.

    4) Will suffering ever end?

    human suffering? not unless we end it ourselves. but frankly, i don't think we will ever completely end human suffering. we will continue to make life more comfortable and extended, but suffering will always be here.

    the universe, and nature, if you take a careful look around, are not concerned in the slightest that we survive. nature is cold cruel and indifferent to whether we survive at all, which is why there is suffering in the first place.

    with regards the other flora and fauna with whom we share a common ancestor? they will always suffer too. we (and other animals) cannot survive ourselves, without contributing to the suffering of other animals. from bacteria to broccoli: we kill to survive. it's a fact of life. to end suffering, would be to end life as the world has always known it, or experienced it.

    5) Would you go to war against fellow beleivers?

    no, that's preposterous. plus, i don't have any fellow believers, as they're all non-believers (negative). we really have nothing to be pissed about except for religious people who kill other people due to sheer hubris and ignorance.

    but i am against violence that i can help. if it came down to pure survival, i would kill. but honestly, it's the 21st bleeding century. how many instances can you justify where you absolutely need to kill a fellow human (considering they all felt the same way)? when you really think about it, there are basically none, now that we are conscious, feeling, sentient apes. of course, it doesn't always work like this. still though, killing for ones individual survival is different than killing for ones tribe or country. i will never do that. it's a paleolithic and moronic way to behave considering who we have become. whether we are killing ourselves, or running around telling other people that god will be killing them, is primitive behavour.

    6) What does Jesus' sacrafice mean to you?

    what does the death of buddha mean to you? what does the lightning bolt of Zeus mean to you?

    Jesus, if he existed, was some jewish apostate that liked to talk a lot about peace and love and the poor-man.

    but there is absolutely no evidence that he is a god, or that any god exists. so his sacrifice means nothing to me at all.

    the meme that the crazy bastard paul started that has spawned into xianity (of which it sounds you consider yourself a subscriber) means a lot to me, in a very negative way.

    the abrahamic mono-faiths have played their part in the cultural evolution of our species, but we have arrived at the point where i think we would do well to cast them aside/down, to where they belong, and start really living.

    best of luck in your journey,

    TS

  • steve2
    steve2

    Sorry Radnar but your questions don't move much beyond the well worn organised religion orbit. They're unknowable questions that still invite as many speculative answers as the number of people hearing them. In this world the easiest thing to speculate on but "sell" as "truth" are religious issues.

    IMO - and not necessarily a humble one either! - the most responsibility-inducing questions are those that invite uncertainty into our lives. From the day we're born onwards, we live in a world of frightening ambiguity. The trap of religion is to offer a few nice tidy answers about the unknowable in an attempt to soothe the desperate need to know. Life tells us each day that it is not nice and tidy, but complex with lots of its aspects far from clear cut.

    Beware simplistic questions because it invites answers that are full of hooks!

  • doofdaddy
    doofdaddy

    Ragnar

    I'll ask you a question

    Who are you?

    Think about the question deeply and answer to yourself. Then ask yourself again. Who am I?

    Continue like pealing an onion, one layer at a time....

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake

    Hi,

    I really could not answer you questions in a single post. I have read two books by people whom I respect a great deal, mentioned below if you're interested. I probably share most of my Christian beliefs with these two. They seem to be able to understand the spiritual meaning of scriptures. In many ways I think the JWs are so near yet so far, from the truth - its almost a paradox.

    In Search of Christian Freedom Ray Franz

    What the Bible Really teaches Keith Ward

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake
    My guess is that it is 10% sincere, 90% just out to cause pain. I hope I am wrong.

    Ragnar

    I can understand how you might feel this way, but I think you are mistaken. What should be taken into account is the stage some people are at in their lives. Some are seriously hurt by something and someone that they trusted most of all. Many are victims of the pain you mention.

    If I may quote from a Watchtower of Jan 15, 1974

    "When persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them? They may prefer not to believe the warning. They may even resent it. But does that free one from the moral responsibility to give that warning?

    (borrowed from CoC)

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    Here's one of my personal beliefs:

    There isn't just ONE creator, but rather a GROUP of creators. A supreme being couldn't have created everything! I think he must've delegated the creative task to many, thus many share in the credit for the whole creation of all that's in our planet Earth.

    DY

  • JH
    JH

    I believe in a creator, and each religion puts emphasis on something different, so this makes God's word unclear.

    I believe that the bible is unclear and that's why the world is f'd up.


    Naturally some use other books like the coran, but God's will isn't very clear.

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    I'd like to second tetrapod's responses! :-)

    SNG

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