defd- taking bets on how long it takes for him to become apostate...

by in a new york bethel minute 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Will Power

  Good Morning Df'd
  
  did you realize that even your definition of APOSTATE is Watchtower warped?
  
  what other double talk words are you carrying around?
  
  "Every Eye Will See"
  
  wp
• 

  carla

  defd,

  There are a few of us here who never were jw, so technically we can't be apostate.

  I really cannot see how you can stay. I don't understand. You must have seen the threads on the UN, the pain of unscriptural shunning, the sexual abuse stories, the human wreckage stories. How can those not touch you? I can see you must want to serve God. How can you see the flip flops (such as when they confused Jesus with Satan in the SAME year) and not be concerned? If your eternal salvation is at stake here, wouldn't you want to make sure that the FDS is who they say they are? Have you really researched this appointment? Have you looked at the same information that Jesus would have had to look at in 1914-1919? Were they (the org) really dispensing the proper food at the proper time? How so?

  Yes sometimes people on the board can get a bit smart alecky (me too). Do you understand that for many this is the only place that anybody even understands what we are talking about? The general population don't really know anything about jw's. We at times just need to blow of a little steam due the frustration of having an org who is controlling your life when you have no choice in the matter. Or who has screwed up your life in the past. And some of the stuff out of the wt is just so silly you just have to laugh at it don't you? Like learning about sex from bovines. Come on, that's pretty silly stuff.

  So pass of some of the smart alecky comments once and awhile and try to see where the other person may be coming from.

  I do have one other question for you- I'm not trying to bring up the jgnat issue in particular, but you said she was unteachable and I think you insinuated that, that would be the end of trying to teach her anything. I have also heard that some people when in book study, after awhile if the non jw don't believe or can't due to scripture not matching, the jw will just give up. I have read a number of stories where Christians have continued, sometimes for years, to reach someone with the Gospel of Christ. And finally the person came to know Christ. Why do jw's just give up?

  carla
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Ditto what carla said.

  I think defd is an alright fellow. He has unfortunately picked and chosen what parts of the Watchtower theology he accepts. Certainly the recent commands not to use the internet to defend the 'truth' to 'apostates' he does not take seriously. {Actually I don't consider myself an apostate in the real significance of the word - One who leaves the Christ - I have not done that}

  He certainly is Captive to the Concept that the organization is the one Jehovah is using on the earth. I cannot see how one who is exposed to provable facts that stand in stark denial of that principle idea can continue to deny it forever. Stories abound here of those of us who finally were able to see through the fog of the fantasy. It took me two years about to do that.

  The organization holds people captive by confusing the FDS with Jesus, by substituting 'the organization' as if it were God. It takes time to get the seperation made for some. It is powerful mental subturfuge ebing used. But propoganda can be seen for what it is in time.

  One year!

  Jeff
• 

  jgnat

  Personally, I dislike betting threads like this. I mean, really, defd is a real person with genuine concerns.

  If I read you right, defd, you have been seriously betrayed by the 'brothers'. You only have a few straws left.

  First of all, you still confuse love of Jehovah with love for the organization and the FDS. This is easily remedied with independent bible study, in context, apart from the Watchtower materials.

  I also sense that you are about sick of hardcore believers like your Catholic family and individual Jehovah's Witnesses. Though you do tend to gravitate towards other hardcore types, and still use hardcore judgement on others. I think a simple exposure to softcore Christianity would be a fine cure for what ails you.
• 

  defd

  I do have one other question for you- I'm not trying to bring up the jgnat issue in particular, but you said she was unteachable and I think you insinuated that, that would be the end of trying to teach her anything. I have also heard that some people when in book study, after awhile if the non jw don't believe or can't due to scripture not matching, the jw will just give up. I have read a number of stories where Christians have continued, sometimes for years, to reach someone with the Gospel of Christ. And finally the person came to know Christ. Why do jw's just give up?
  

  
  
  

  
  
  carla
  

  
  

  Carla

  I will answer your sincere questions. They may not be to your satisfaction but they are what I honestly FEEL and it wont be coming from a Watchtower either. I will use the bible when I can.

  You asked: I'm not trying to bring up the jgnat issue in particular, but you said she was unteachable and I think you insinuated that, that would be the end of trying to teach her anything.

  My answer: Carla I do not know how long you have been here. But I have been here alot and have talked to many. What I said about Jgnat, I stand by. Just go back and read her Topics and posts. Read some of the conversations she has had with some. I know some people think thta as a christian we are NOT allowed to make that kind of statement. SOME call it JUDGEING and try to apply Jesus words. But that is a MISAPPLICATION of Jesus words. Let me share with you some other verse of Jesus and you tell me if I am in the wrong for making those statements.

  Matthew 7: 19-20 "Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]." Let me ask you carla. Jesus said that we would recognize people who were not true christians in this verse. How could we RECOGNIZE them without making some sort of judgement or decision? You see the point? He aslo said you will tell a tree by the fruit it bears, refering to people. How can you tell without making some sort of judgement or decision about that person?

  Matthew 10:11-13 "Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU ." Carla Jesus here is telling them to SEARCH out DESERVING ones and to leave the UNDESERVING one alone. How else will the disciples know which is which without making some sort of judgement or decision?

  Again jesus told us not to throw our pearls before swine. Over an over again we are admonished by the BIBLE to WATCHOUT for bad association, to stay away from certain kind of people. How else will we be able to OBEY that admonishon unless we make a decision or some type of judgement about a person? So when Jesus said we should not be JUDGEING he didnt mean we could not see a person for who they are and make a decision about them. He was talking about something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, A DIFFERENT kind of judgement. So I stand by my statement about Jgnat. I have seen her conversations, her attitude and basically her true self on this board and have made a decision. Does it mean I will STICK with it? No, not if she changes.

  D.
• 

  jgnat

  ....and the fruit of the spirit are?
• 

  JH

  I dont agree with the statement you made about me being an APOSTATE by posting here

  I agree with you, but does the Watchtower agree with us?

  Tell an elder that you post here, and see what happens...
• 

  AK - Jeff

  defd - The meaning of Judging another, and making a judgment or decision is different.

  I might make a judgment that I won't go to a particular movie. But that is far different from condemning it as unworthy and wicked, especially since I have not seen it yet. Jesus did condemn judging another as unworthy - that is reserved for Him to do.

  Seems like refusing to speak to another human being is at the least rudeness, maybe a self-righteous form of shunning. I find no example in the Bible of Christ doing that. He even corrected the religious leaders with his words - He did not turn a cold shoulder to them, in essence treating them like less than human. It could be said he judged them perhaps - but he was the one with that authority. We do not have that authority, do we?

  It just appears defd, that you are so caught up in judging others that you refuse to accept that anything they say may have value. That is an old JW trait I had to shed - how many times at the doors did we refuse to hear what the householder had to say, due to the belief that we had it all right - especially if sources outside the WT were being used?

  Self-righteous judgmentalism is hard to shed my friend. Don't take this as critical - just instructional. jgnat is a Christian it seems to me. If she is, and you are wrong, how will the Lord view that?

  Jeff
• 

  defd

  AGAIN ak-jeff you CANNOT REFUTE what Jesus says here!

  Matthew 7: 19-20"Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire.Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]." Let me ask you carla. Jesus said that we would recognize people who were not true christians in this verse. How could we RECOGNIZE them without making some sort of judgement or decision? You see the point? He aslo said you will tell a tree by the fruit it bears, refering to people. How can you tell without making some sort of judgement or decision about that person?

  Matthew 10:11-13;"Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU ." Carla Jesus here is telling them to SEARCH out DESERVING ones and to leave the UNDESERVING one alone. How else will the disciples know which is which without making some sort of judgement or decision?

  Again jesus told us not to throw our pearls before swine. Over an over again we are admonished by the BIBLE to WATCHOUT for bad association, to stay away from certain kind of people. How else will we be able to OBEY that admonishon unless we make a decision or some type of judgement about a person? So when Jesus said we should not be JUDGEING he didnt mean we could not see a person for who they are and make a decision about them. He was talking about something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, A DIFFERENT kind of judgement. So I stand by my statement about Jgnat. I have seen her conversations, her attitude and basically her true self on this board and have made a decision. Does it mean I will STICK with it? No, not if she changes.

  D.
• 

  carla

  dfed,

  While I don't agree with your applications of the scriptures I see what you are trying to say. I however, would like to look at 'love your neighbor as yourself'. If I understand jw's, I believe they have so many meetings and publications because the continuous study of these, they believe brings them more knowledge of God. So you study, study, study the wt's. Yes, occasional look at the Bible to see if scripts are in there. Now, if you loved your neighbor, and who is your neighbor? All of us. If you loved them you would be as worried about their salvation as much as your own. You wouldn't give up on someone because they couldn't understand what you are trying to say. Imagine if teachers at school did that? They realize that different students sometimes need a different approach than others. The teacher adjusts to the student if possible. They allow questions and encourage research. Does the wt do that? Does all that business bring an actual personal relationship with God?

  The reason for the door to door work doesn't make sense to me is exactly that. It seems to me that they really don't care about anybodies salvation really. If you don't accept their teachings right of the bat they will give up. To keep time slips seems so unbiblical and ungodly to me. If they truly cared about an individual the time slips would not be necessary. Reaching the individual would be of the upmost importance. The word of God would be the focus for the 'work'. Not how many hours someone puts in and some elder judging someones spirituality by time knocking on empty houses. They would be willing to discuss even the past history, scandals etc... People take their salvation very serious, not just jw's. You are asking them to blindly believe the wt. The fds. Yet, active jw's have never even questioned why would Jesus appoint this org over all? It is that important one must look at what Jesus had to look at at the time of the so called appointment. If you are talking eternity here, you better make darn sure that youv'e got it right. You will be held responsible. You will not be able to claim ignorance. You will be able to say I just didn't want to do the work at the time. You are asking people to believe something I don't think you or any jw can answer. Why would Jesus appoint the wt over everything? why? What were they and they alone teaching that was so special? If God somehow chose the wt over all, then you better be able to tell my why. And then you better be able to tell my why God changes his mind so often. If God is in charge of this org. there should not be so many changes. Even atheists know that the Bible says God is the same today, tomorrow, and yesterday.

  As for knowing them by their fruits, can't you see all the human wreckage produced by the wt are the fruits of the wt? That is what the wt produces. Human wreckage. Sprititual wreckage.

  Jesus sat, ate, and stayed with so called sinners. Would a jw sit down for a meal with a prostitute? They won't even sit down with someone who disagrees with them. Can you not see how similar the wt is with the Pharasees?

  By the way you judge you also will be judged. (sorry don't have Bible at hand, may not be word for word) The harshness you use will be used on you as well, and that's when it will really matter. How many have been turned away from Christ by the wt? I see many examples. That is what they are turning out, that is their fruit. Their unforgiving nature produces people who have given up on God because they may believe that God has given up on them. Why? Because that's what was drilled in their head by the org. If you ever dare leave us, it is the same as leaving God!

  You shall know them by their fruits indeed.

  carla