by Honesty 74 Replies latest jw friends
Methinks you're both missing my point.
I'm not attempting to tie up moot points of the afterlife, I'm merely addressing the question of "what is the minimum required to be deemed a Christian", from this account.
Sometimes I am struck by how similar many JW reactions are to the reactions of preachers I would meet in the door-to-door work. The preachers are always certain of their ground and they are sure they can show you the light. Then you start questioning and they start dodging, weaving and blustering.
Simple direct questions that can't be answered by a JW produce the EXACT SAME reactions.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
OldSoul:
It appears to be the same with the Mormons, too - obfuscation through excessive rhetoric
LT -- Why don't you tell us what you are getting at ? I think the story implied that jesus could admit whoever he wants into the kingdom , The author was only telling what he saw , The theif asked jesus to remember him in the kingdom , jesus reply indicates that there are indeed 2 promises of life , one for paradise and another for co-rulership . I remember I did try to argue with a baptist one time that tried to convince me that the statement meant that there was an instant resurrection to heaven so argued over the right sentence structure , like is it ," truly I say unto you this day , you will be with me in paradise" or" truly I say unto you, this day you will be with me in paradise "? I go with the first one because jesus did not go to paradise on the day he died . He knew he would not be raised until the 3rd day, so he was in the grave .
Heathen:Was the story included just to make a nice twee little point that not all the Jews reviled Jesus to the end? Methinks not.
What earthly good is it's inclusion, unless it's to highlight that even at deaths door, with your hands nailed to a beam, strung up above the ground, no water or [Jewish/JW/Mormon/other] priesthood to be found, you can ask for and receive acceptance from the Son of God?
I'm not talking about the theology of afterlife, rulership, or anything like that. I believe it's far, far simpler. Jesus accepted the thief as one who wanted to follow him into the kingdom (and the harlot, and the adultress, and the leper, etc., etc., etc.) so why do you have difficulty accepting him?
Just my humble opinion, of course, but what do I know as a hippy-heretic, saved by grace alone (though baptised and a regular communicant)?
LT - obsfuscation through rhetoric - not fair matey.
We're on the same side!
As a christian it is incumbent on each of us to have a desire for all people to avoid whatever we define as hell -
21 ΒΆ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I've met lots of christians who claimed that there was no need for any of the sacraments etc.., no need for structure all that was needed was being born-again in the spirit and thereafter they were saved. The thief on the cross was used very frequently to illustrate this instantaneous single point in time - the'saved' moment. I'm just worried that it's not that simple. Once we discount the commandments / the sacraments / obedience and replace it with grace without effort I wonder what we are left with.
PS I'm not saying that we are saved by works!!
Once we discount the commandments / the sacraments / obedience and replace it with grace without effort I wonder what we are left with.
I think you wind up with Unitarians ..... LOL
Good point Qcmbr . Alot of the new testament is about how a christian is to behave and what is acceptable to God or the church . Jesus may have showed grace to the thief but was very upset with the nation of Israel as a whole as he said it would go easier for the cities of sodom and gamorrah than for jerusalem on judgement day . Even on judgement day there are those that showed lack of respect for the brothers of christ and the truth that are destroyed .The part where he says for I was naked and hungry and in prison yet you did not feed cloth or visit me because you did unto the least of my brothers you have done it unto me .....
We're left with simple, unadulterated faith.
Come on, now, you're not telling me that you truly believe the Apostles originally worshipped in exactly the same manner as the JWs, Mormons, Catholics, or Protestant Reformers, etc., etc.?
I'm not denigrating the sacraments, with my comments. I hold them in very high regard, and they are an intimate and regular part of my own worship. That having been said, though, I don't believe them to be "saving" ordinances. Vital, yes, but not the means of salvation.
To hold them as such makes idols of them, substituting a salvation of grace with a salvation of continuous works. It replaces "faith" with a checklist against which we must compare ourselves before we accept the bond that has evidently been experienced with the "Divine".
Of course, if an individual has never experienced that, maybe a bunch of such tokens is pacifying - check off the list, by human efforts, and enter into "Kingdom Kindergarten"
"God" remains my Daddy, whether I go to supper or not...
"God" remains my Daddy, whether I go to supper or not...
hey ross...
TS
Ross,
I'm not denigrating the sacraments, with my comments. I hold them in very high regard, and they are an intimate and regular part of my own worship. That having been said, though, I don't believe them to be "saving" ordinances. Vital, yes, but not the means of salvation.
To hold them as such makes idols of them, substituting a salvation of grace with a salvation of continuous works. It replaces "faith" with a checklist against which we must compare ourselves before we accept the bond that has evidently been experienced with the "Divine".
Of course, if an individual has never experienced that, maybe a bunch of such tokens is pacifying - check off the list, by human efforts, and enter into "Kingdom Kindergarten"
"God" remains my Daddy, whether I go to supper or not...
I love this. Thank you for stating I feel so perfectly!
Andi
