Watchtower Gives Up Explaining 607 BCE Date!

by VM44 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Midget-Sasquatch

  Its true that the Watch Tower magazines themselves have said virtually nothing on the gentile times for nearly 2 decades. But in at least two other recent publications, its described as fully as it ever was.

  Maybe it just seems less well explained to us now vs the past, because we've personally since learned the information and insights that brings out all the faults and inadequacies?

  e.g. from the Daniel book - mostly on pg.96 ----- its economical with the wording but all their usual points are there as far as I can remember.

  26 Evidently, Nebuchadnezzar’s "seven times" involved seven years. In prophecy, a year averages 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each. (Compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) So the king’s "seven times," or seven years, were 360 days multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. But what about the major fulfillment of his dream? The prophetic "seven times" lasted much longer than 2,520 days. This was indicated by Jesus’ words: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24) That ‘trampling’ began in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the typical kingdom of God ceased to function in Judah. When would the trampling end? At "the times of restoration of all things," when divine sovereignty would again be manifested toward the earth through symbolic Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God.—Acts 3:21.

  27

  If we were to count 2,520 literal days from Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E., that would bring us only to 600 B.C.E., a year having no Scriptural significance. Even in 537 B.C.E., when the liberated Jews were back in Judah, Jehovah’s sovereignty was not manifested on the earth. That was so because Zerubbabel, the heir to David’s throne, was made not king but only governor of the Persian province of Judah.

  28

  Since the "seven times" are prophetic, we must apply to the 2,520 days the Scriptural rule: "A day for a year." This rule is set out in a prophecy regarding the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 4:6, 7; compare Numbers 14:34.) The "seven times" of earth’s domination by Gentile powers without interference by God’s Kingdom therefore spanned 2,520 years. They began with the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem in the seventh lunar month (Tishri 15) of 607 B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:8, 9, 25, 26) From that point to 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. The remaining 1,914 years stretch from then to 1914 C.E. Thus, the "seven times," or 2,520 years, ended by Tishri 15, or October 4/5, 1914 C.E.

  29

  In that year "the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled, and God gave rulership to "the lowliest one of mankind"—Jesus Christ—who had been considered so base by his foes that they even had him impaled. (Daniel 4:17) To enthrone the Messianic King, Jehovah loosened the symbolic iron and copper bands around the "rootstock" of his own sovereignty. The Most High God thus allowed a royal "sprout" to grow from it as a manifestation of divine sovereignty toward the earth by means of the heavenly Kingdom in the hands of David’s greatest Heir, Jesus Christ. (Isaiah 11:1, 2; Job 14:7-9; Ezekiel 21:27) How we thank Jehovah for this blessed turn of events and for unraveling the mystery of the great tree!
• 

  Kaput

  The Borg's own date for Nebuchadnezzar's death of 582 BCE (Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! book, Chapter 7, pg. 99) still leaves 'em 20 years short if you add the regnal years of Nebuchadnezzar's successors (adds up to 23 yrs.). But wasn't that the plan? To "bury" those years by changing Nebuchadnezzar's reign from 605-562 BCE to 624-582 BCE to make 607 "fit"? Don't need rocket science to figure this one out.
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Wt chronology has indeed served God's people well for decades inasmuch it has focussed on the fulfillment of modern day biblical prophecy. Celebrated WT scholars have indeed studies alternative opinions on chronology and keep well abreast of developments in modern biblical scholarship. Such dedication to Bible Truth and accuracy has caused some fine tuning in our understanding of chronology from the forties with the advent of the brilliant NWT.

  The date 607 has served all Bible Students well as genuine Christians have a keen interest in End Time prophecies unlike the apostates and higher critics who prefer the darkness.

  All chronology must have a methodology otherwise such a chronology cannot exist. There must be a method and a methodology or a philosophical approach that guides the scholar in the interpretation of the data.

  There are in fact many Bible Students who support 607 wjo are not associated with the Witnesses but even if it is only the Witnesses who teach 607 this merely demonstrates that truth is not the province of the majority but the minority so that all praise goes to Jehovah in making fools of the wordly wise and apostates.

  The interpretation of the seventy years made possible by celebrated WT scholars and published by the Society is dead on correct because it works. Your fanciful theories or theories fail and are contradictory with no endorsement by scholarship. Your view is poor scholarship and is the product of the apostate and higher critic.

  There is secular evidence for 607 as you well know for it is based upon the Fall of Babylon and the Return, both these events have testimony from secular sources. the seventy years finds agreement with Josephus, a secular historian and the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 is confirmed biblically and again by Josephus. The foundation of 607 and its calculation is rock solid.

  The Jonsson hypothesis is written by a non-scholar who cannot work with the primary sources so his conclusions are simply an interpretation of the secular evidence whic once again can only produce ambiguous results.

  scholar JW
• 

  stillajwexelder

  you are consistent scholar - tragic really
• 

  scholar

  Alleymom

  Marjorie

  Celebrated WT scholars appreciate the fact that Neo-Babylonian chronology has a certain appeal in that it deals with the regnal data mentioned in the Bible but using a regnal based methodology is fraught with danger because it cannot accolunt for a twenty year gap between secular and biblical chronology. For this very reason an event-based methodology is preferred because it avouds many of the problems in comparing secular chron ology with the biblical data.

  The other vexing problem that your chronology and methodology cannot account for the seventy years unless it is either ignored or reduced to fifty years, classed as a round number or interpreted as a period of servitude only.

  WT chronology is simple, event based and teats the seventy years as a genuine historical period of exile-servitude-desolation harmonizing all of Scripture.

  scholar JW
• 

  Pistoff

  WHO WHO WHO WHO WHO
  
  ARE THE :
  
  Celebrated WT scholars have provided sufficient information to dispel any concerns raised by the Jonsson hypothesis in the book Gentile Times Reconsidered. The claculation of 607 is based on biblical and secular evidence and its simplicity is well presented in the publications in recent years. Apostate thinking poses no threat to our chronology as its methodology and interpretation demonstrates a loyalty to God's inspired Word.
  
  
  NAME THEM "SCHOLAR"
  
  YOUR NAME DOES NOT COUNT.
• 

  steve2

  WT chronology is simple, event based and teats the seventy years as a genuine historical period of exile-servitude-desolation harmonizing all of Scripture.

  scholar JW

  As scholar has so revealingly stated as directly quoted: "WT chronology is simple, even based and teats the seventy years as a genuine historical period...etc."

  The key word - italicised - is teats, and for those who do not know what a teat is, I offer the following dictionary definition:

  "A mammary gland or nipple; pap" (The Heritage Dictionary of the English Lanaguage).

  So there we have it from the self-styled scholar's own penmanship: The WT interpretation is simple, event based and sucks.

  Thank you scholar. Your scholasticism is startlingly colourful!
• 

  Jeffro

  Wt chronology has indeed served God's people well for decades inasmuch it has focussed on the fulfillment of modern day biblical prophecy.

  "God's people" - that is simply a delusion. Of course advocates of the Society will say that the Society's interpretations have served the Society well, but it is a completely empty statement.

  Celebrated WT scholars have indeed studies alternative opinions on chronology and keep well abreast of developments in modern biblical scholarship. Such dedication to Bible Truth and accuracy has caused some fine tuning in our understanding of chronology from the forties with the advent of the brilliant NWT.

  They haven't 'studied' alternative opinions; they have selectively glossed over them, derided them, and pretended that they are not important. It is obvious from the Society's ignorance of Jeremiah 25:12 and other scriptures that they are not interested in truth.

  The date 607 has served all Bible Students well as genuine Christians have a keen interest in End Time prophecies unlike the apostates and higher critics who prefer the darkness.

  Small fringe-group religions have always been keenly interested in End-Time prophecies. None of them in the past were right, and neither are the Society's.

  All chronology must have a methodology otherwise such a chronology cannot exist. There must be a method and a methodology or a philosophical approach that guides the scholar in the interpretation of the data.

  There is a methodology, or system or methods and principles, involved in chronology overall, but it is a misuse of the word "methodology" to say that an individual scholar uses a particular methodology in a particular instance, where the word "method" should be used.

  There are in fact many Bible Students who support 607 wjo are not associated with the Witnesses but even if it is only the Witnesses who teach 607 this merely demonstrates that truth is not the province of the majority but the minority so that all praise goes to Jehovah in making fools of the wordly wise and apostates.

  There may be other minor religions that share the same Adventists roots as the Witnesses. Like the Witnesses, they are regarded as insignificant by legitimate scholars who, by and large, couldn't be bothered caring about such minor groups' bizarre theories.

  The interpretation of the seventy years made possible by celebrated WT scholars and published by the Society is dead on correct because it works. Your fanciful theories or theories fail and are contradictory with no endorsement by scholarship. Your view is poor scholarship and is the product of the apostate and higher critic.

  "dead" maybe, "dead on correct" no. The Society's interpretation doesn't "work" at all. It contradicts itself, the bible, and secular sources. I'm not sure what you mean by "fanciful theories or theories", but my chronology works perfectly, and co-incidentally falls into place with secular sources. The supposed higher critics you here denegrate are the scholars that you say my work contradicts, and my work concurs with those scholars whom you say offer no endorsement to my work. Your reasoning is not just flawed, it is rediculous.

  There is secular evidence for 607 as you well know for it is based upon the Fall of Babylon and the Return, both these events have testimony from secular sources. the seventy years finds agreement with Josephus, a secular historian and the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 is confirmed biblically and again by Josephus. The foundation of 607 and its calculation is rock solid.

  You can't just say there is specific secular evidence for 607 simply because you can add 70 to 537. In Against Apion, Josephus indicates that the temple was only destroyed for 50 years, and it has been demonstrated in depth on this forum that complete depopulation is not referred to, just as the 70 years did not need to completely apply to Tyre.

  The Jonsson hypothesis is written by a non-scholar who cannot work with the primary sources so his conclusions are simply an interpretation of the secular evidence whic once again can only produce ambiguous results.

  This supposed "Jonsson hypothesis" is basically a collation of information produced by the secular community. All of the material you claim I gleaned from Jonsson, I found from other sources, so your claim is irrelevant.
• 

  OldSoul

  Now, I think you lot ought to lighten up on poor Scholar. He just misspelt a word. From the context, he clearly meant "Cerebrated scholars." Oh. Yes, I suppose in light of the subject that would be just as funny.

  Carry on, then.
• 

  Jeffro

  Celebrated WT scholars appreciate the fact that Neo-Babylonian chronology has a certain appeal in that it deals with the regnal data mentioned in the Bible but using a regnal based methodology is fraught with danger because it cannot accolunt for a twenty year gap between secular and biblical chronology. For this very reason an event-based methodology is preferred because it avouds many of the problems in comparing secular chron ology with the biblical data.

  I have previously demonstrated by a complete tabulation of the periods of the Neo-Babylonian kings and the Judean Divided Monarchy that the bible can be completely harmonised with secular chronology, and that was done by using only the bible for all information available therefrom, before adding in the information from secular sources which fell into place perfectly. Of course the Society's 20-year gap cannot be accounted for because it is fictitious.

  The other vexing problem that your chronology and methodology cannot account for the seventy years unless it is either ignored or reduced to fifty years, classed as a round number or interpreted as a period of servitude only.

  Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra discuss a period of seventy years that ran from 609 to 539 for which Babylon was dominant, and during parts of which nations such as Judah and Tyre were dominated. Zechariah discusses a 70 year period for which the temple was in disrepair, which ran from 587 to 517. No ignoring, no rounding, no contradictions between the treatment of the 70 years between Judah and Tyre, no contradictions with Jeremiah's initial prophecy, and perfectly harmonious with the bulk of secular chronology.

  WT chronology is simple, event based and teats the seventy years as a genuine historical period of exile-servitude-desolation harmonizing all of Scripture.

  It is simple to say that the Earth is flat too. I could argue that the bible says the planet has "socket pedestals" and "four corners". But it would be rediculous and would contradict other scriptures. Even if the bible did intend that, it would still be untrue. And such is the Society's 607 interpretation. "Harmonizing all of Scripture"? Just how is the Society's interpretation consistent with Isaiah 45:1, Jeremiah 25:12 and Daniel 5:26-31 which clearly indicate the significance of the event that would end the 70 years.