How, then, about President Knorr's prediction in 1942 - right in the middle of World War II - that the peace organization which had disappeared from the scene at the outbreak of the war in 1939 would "ascend out of the abyss," (Rev. 17:8) again after the end of the war?" 12 At first glance, this seems to be a remarkable prophecy. It was a prediction that clearly was fulfilled. But it was in no way unique.
As was shown above, W.E. Vine, as early as 1919, identified the League of Nations with the "beast" in Revelation, chapter 17. This interpretation was not adopted by the Watch Tower Society until eleven years later, when it was presented in volume 2 of the work Light, published in 1930. In 1919 the Society still held the beast with the woman on its back described in Revelation, chapter 17, to be the pagan Roman empire, with the apostate Church of Rome "on its back." 13 This had been the prevalent Protestant interpretation of these figures ever since the Reformation in the sixteenth century. But in the second volume of Light the League of Nations was associated with this prophetic vision, exactly as Vine had done eleven years earlier. The "scarlet colored beast" (Rev. 17:3) was explained to be "The Hague International Peace Conference," formed in 1899. 14 This organization "functioned until the World War. It then went into the abyss and ceased to function. After the World War it came out of the abyss or pit and began to function again in the form of the League of Nations." 15 This understanding was prevalent until 1942 (see for instance the book Enemies 1937, pp. 283ff.), when it dawned upon the Watch Tower leaders that World War II would not develop into Armageddon either. Another interpretation of Revelation 17, therefore, became necessary.
It came also, in the booklet Peace - Can It Last?, founded upon a speech by the same name delivered by the President of the Society, Nathan H. Knorr, in the autumn of 1942. The Hague International Peace Conference was now completely excluded from the role list. The "beast" was at first the League of Nations. It went "into the abyss" in 1939 at the outbreak of World War II. But it would not remain there. Quoting Revelation 17:8, President Knorr predicted: "The association of worldly nations will rise again." 16
As all know, this prediction was fulfilled. But it was not difficult to make at that time. As Knorr himself pointed out in the same booklet (p. 21), plans of reviving the peace organization after the war were well on the way, the Axis Powers, Japan and Hungary having signed a "new League of Nations" already on November 20, 1940. In fact, the United Nations had already been formed, several months before Knorr's prediction, on January 1, 1942 at Washington D.C., with twenty-six nations signing a joint declaration on that date.17
Besides, Knorr's prediction was neither new nor unique. Other prophetic expositors had predicted the same thing - as much as two years earlier! Dwight Wilson refers, for example, to a prediction by the well known Bible expositor, Harry Rimmer: "Harry Rimmer in 1940 forecast a new League of Nations as a result of the war - and the rise of a universal dictator. The United Nations has arrived, but there is no dictator yet." 18
Thus, the Watch Tower Society can claim no priority on this or other predictions and prophetic applications attached to the League of Nations and the United Nations The same views were held by the millenarian fundamentalists in general at that time, who originated the predictions about the future of these peace organizations years before they were picked up by the Watch Tower Society. Fundamentalist Christians in general did not change their attitude towards the peace organization after World War II. They continued to regard it as the "beast", of Revelation 17 and - like the Watch Tower Society at that and like the "harlot" on its back as corrupt Christendom. 19 Sociologist Louis Gasper explains:
The Fundamentalists literally believed that "the woman arrayed in purple and scarlet" in Revelation 17 prefigures the establishment of a corrupted, though colorful world church which would include the Catholics and Protestants. 20
The attitude of the Watch Tower Society, not only towards the United Nations but also toward "the organized, corrupted Christendom," then, is seen to be shared by fundamentalist Christians in general. Even when it comes to the habit of adopting disapproving resolutions against the United Nations, the Watch Tower Society closely follows the methods of the fundamentalist movement:
Although the fundamentalists were generally opposed to the United Nations and criticized it vehemently, they did not make any organized attempt to place pressure upon Congress to cause the withdrawal of the United States from it. Their opposition was usually expressed in the form of statements and resolutions which were adopted at frequent intervals to indicate their general disapproval of the United Nations. 21
CONCLUSION
The above examination has demonstrated that the views held by the Watch Tower Society about the international peace organizations are more "traditional" than most Jehovah's Witnesses believe. They are views that, more or less, have been shared by practically all fundamentalist Christians. The same holds true of the "predictions" of the future of these peace organizations presented by the Society: They were simply taken over from the fundamentalists. If some of these predictions seem to have been fulfilled, therefore, this does not prove anything as to the Society's ability to prophesy; it just proves that they are able to plagiarize. For this, no divine inspiration is needed. If these predictions were divinely originated, the leaders of the Watch Tower Society should be forced to conclude that God gave them to fundamentalist Christians outside the Watch Tower organization.
One question remains to be answered: Is the vision of the "beast" at Revelation 17 really applicable to the League of Nations and the United Nations of our days? Even if at first glance this application may seem likely, this author feels it has serious problems. He hopes to return to this subject in a future article.
Carl Olof Jonsson
This article written by Carl Olof Jonsson shows that Knor's "prediction" of the return of the League of Nations as the UN was not such an amazing prediction. It was common knowledge that the League was coming back after the war. ALso, others had "predicted" the same thing two years before Knorr did.
Mr. Shakita
Shakita
JoinedPosts by Shakita
-
27
Witnesses cannot refute the real "TRUTH"
by integ inno matter what any pompass ass witness says about the religion being the "truth", they cannot refute the simple fact that nothing they have ever predicted has come true.
that's a pretty poor record for gods' chosen people.
oh sure they can point to lame obvious things such as " critical times getting harder to deal with" (even that is debatable), but no hard facts to point to that show they are right, or have ever been.
-
-
Shakita
-
65
so exhausted you can't rest
by Utopian Reformist ini have been on the road now since late march.
i am in helsinki, finland and am very very very tired.
i am flying out again tomorrow to mexico city via london & atlanta, ga. i will be working in mexico city until the 27th of may.
-
-
Shakita
Dear Mario, I am sorry to hear that you are still suffering greatly over what happemed to your little girl Talia. I can't imagine the unbearable pain, grief and suffering that you continue to endure. It is a testament to your strength and personal resolve that you are still here among us. And we are grateful that such a tender soul as yourself is still here with us. I'd like to propose a scenario. Just suppose for the sake of argument that Talia has survived into the next world. I realize that there are many here that don't believe in that, but hear me out. Just imagine that your little girl is looking down on you and she sees your emotional turmoil. What do you think that she would say to you if she could talk with you now? Maybe she would say something like: "Daddy, it breaks my heart to see you suffering so intensely. I know that you love me so deeply and that you blame yourself for my death, but you are not to blame. It is not your fault. I know that that doesn't take away your pain and suffering, but I don't want you to torment yourself any longer with what if's. Daddy, you will see me one day again. Until that time comes, please live your life. As hard as it may be, try to find happiness in the present. Your anguish will fade in time, though you will never forget me and you will always define your life by that tragic event. The world needs such a tender and loving soul as yourself. I will love you always." My dear friend, I know that if I died and my family was suffering greatly, I would want them to move on with their lives. I would feel great sadness seeing my family was suffering but that there was nothing that I could do. Maybe your gift to Talia is to find happiness once again. I realize that such a thing seems impossible right now, but don't you think that if Talia were still alive that that is what she would tell you? My two brothers lost each of their sons to tragic circumstances. My younger brother lost his son to leukemia and my older brother lost his son to a brain tumor. I must admit that I was at a loss for words as to how to comfort them. There really aren't any words of comfort that are adequate, in my opinion. My brothers will always mourn the loss of their precious children, but I can say that I admire their strength of character for enduring such a thing and continuing to live on. You have far more strength than you give yourself credit for. You have the ability to rise above this tragedy and to be whole again some day. I am confident that you will be able to use your experience to help others in like circumstances some day. Just never give up, my friend. The world needs more people like yourself. I send my love and the love of my family to you Mario. Love, Mr. Shakita
-
50
Why didn't Jesus Give Instructions for a Bible?
by gumby inmatt: 24:14 .."and this good new of the kingdom will be preached in all the earth as a witnesss to all the nations - and then the end will come".. jesus plan was that by the time he was to return, the earth would be schooled as to who and what he was.
suppose you were going to leave the planet for 2000 years and you wanted the entire earthly society of people who would be alive when you returned to know about you.
would you tell someone to write down all your words of truth since these words would produce salvation and eternal life to all who believed in you........or would you tell a handful of diciples or say even 500 buddies to spread your words to their children and down through the succeding generations?.
-
-
Shakita
www.religioustolerance.org states that there are 33,000 Christian denominations in the world. Some of these sects I've never even head of. I guess it becomes sect du jour. I do get the conundrum of not having the written word. I believe that it was necessary to have the written word to reveal to us a record of the life and history of Jesus Christ. My point was that each particular sect puts their spin on what it means to be a Christian or not to be a Christian. I can see how easy it could be to be confused with so many denominations jockeying for position. Jesus said (I know, it was written) that after he died he would send the spirit of truth into the world to direct his followers when he was no longer physically available. The problem that I have with that position is that despite this pouring out of the spirit of truth, there were already competing camps of Christians that were promoting their version of Christianity as truth. Some were Ebionites, others were Pauline Christians and still others were developing the Gnostic version of Christianity. Each group was convinced that their belief system was the correct one. The point that I was trying to make is that it would have been far more productive for the early Christians to stop their fight over what group had the correct doctrinal interpretation. If they had put their differences aside to simply love God and their neighbor, I feel that there would not have been so much confusion that has come down to us in our day. Mr. Shakita
-
50
Why didn't Jesus Give Instructions for a Bible?
by gumby inmatt: 24:14 .."and this good new of the kingdom will be preached in all the earth as a witnesss to all the nations - and then the end will come".. jesus plan was that by the time he was to return, the earth would be schooled as to who and what he was.
suppose you were going to leave the planet for 2000 years and you wanted the entire earthly society of people who would be alive when you returned to know about you.
would you tell someone to write down all your words of truth since these words would produce salvation and eternal life to all who believed in you........or would you tell a handful of diciples or say even 500 buddies to spread your words to their children and down through the succeding generations?.
-
-
Shakita
P.S. I did seperate my thoughts into paragraphs, but my post came out all bunched together. Please help moderators? Thanks. Mr. Shakita
-
50
Why didn't Jesus Give Instructions for a Bible?
by gumby inmatt: 24:14 .."and this good new of the kingdom will be preached in all the earth as a witnesss to all the nations - and then the end will come".. jesus plan was that by the time he was to return, the earth would be schooled as to who and what he was.
suppose you were going to leave the planet for 2000 years and you wanted the entire earthly society of people who would be alive when you returned to know about you.
would you tell someone to write down all your words of truth since these words would produce salvation and eternal life to all who believed in you........or would you tell a handful of diciples or say even 500 buddies to spread your words to their children and down through the succeding generations?.
-
-
Shakita
So........why didn't jesus command a book about him to be written? If you think he did....please supply some kinda proof." Hey Gumby. This is an interesting topic since there are about as many interpretations as to what it means to be Christian as there are Christian denominations. (I believe that there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations, anyone have the figures?) I feel that the proof that Jesus DID NOT instruct his followers to write down the account of his life is evident in the endless variety of those Christians that claim that one must do a,b,c and the other sect says that to be a Christian one must do x,y,z. For example, some sects claim that one must believe that Jesus is God and that believing in such and worshiping Jesus is necessary for salvation. Other sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, The Bible Students and other groups believe that Jesus is lesser than our Heavenly Father and that to worship Jesus is a sin that takes away that worship that should rightfully belong to God. Some sects teach that unless one puts faith and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ that that one will roast in hell for eternity. (Yeowwchh!) There are some groups that have gone back to the polygamy of times past and claim that their right to have many wives and children is their God given right. What also seems to be typical of these sects is the isolation that the leaders of these sects preach so as to avoid contamination from the world. Witness the groups such as the Mennonites, the Amish and the Hutterites that believe living a plain and simple life free from all of the amenities of our modern world is what will please God. The variety of Christian sects and their belief systems seems to be endless. I believe that all of these denominations have consulted God's written word to determine for themselves what God views as approved and unapproved. The opinions as to what constitutes the "right" way to worship God is as endless as the individuals that make up the tens of thousands of denominations that claim that their way is the Christian way. It is for that reason that I don't believe that Christ ever authorized his followers to write down an account of his life. I feel that he knew the resultant confusion that would arise when men would attempt to categorize his life. Invariably, men in power determined what was "orthodox" or what was heretical. Of course, one man's heresy was another man's orthodoxy. I personally believe that Jesus's message is very simple. We are to love God the Father with all of our heart and we are to consider all humans as our brothers that we are to love in imitation of Christ. Ever since my experience with the JW's, I have had it with the conversion scenario. I can't stomach that anymore, because the one attempting to convert is viewing their potential convert as having need of getting it right. My feelings about this are ambiguous because I understand the need for the written word because things that are passed down orally probably have more interpretations than those things that are written down. I suppose that there is no easy answer to why Jesus didn't authorize his own account, but I bet that, even if he had authorized an official account of his life, I'm sure that there would be just as many interpretations as there are with the accounts written down by his first century followers. Argghh
-
13
God's Name... and Christ's
by AGuest inthis may be a repeat subject, but to go back and find a previous would require more time that i have at this moment.
the true name of the most holy one of israel is not "jehovah.
" the yodh... is not a "y", but a "j".
-
-
Shakita
I'm with you Lisa. God doesn't give a rat's patootie what name we use to reference him. Jesus simply called him Father. None of this Jehovah, Yahweh, Jeheshua mabookie calabookie nonsense.
Mr. Shakita
-
56
What you think is the worst the WTS has done?
by DannyBloem in.
- what you think is the worst the wts has done?.
- what doctrine of the wts is the worst?
-
-
Shakita
I believe the worst thing that the WT has done is convince people that leave them that they are worthless, evil, despicable apostates that will be annihilated at Armageddon. Although some people have told the WT where to go in so many words, there are people that even after leaving voluntarily or involuntarily that the WT has the "truth." This has led some to suicide. They will have to answer to God for destroying the lives of innocent people.
Mr. Shakita
-
6
Beware of stumbling... whom?
by Narkissos inthe stern gospel warning against "stumbling little ones" (better drown oneself than that) has impressed christian imagination.
among jws and in most churches it is commonly interpreted as an admonition to restrict one's freedom not to stumble the "weaker" ones, i.e.
the most scrupulous, conservative, bigoted insiders.
-
-
Shakita
Bingo. From the immediate context the "little ones" not to be stumbled were those who didn't belong to the inner circle of the disciples: children; independent people such as the freelance exorcist; sympathisers who would be content to be friendly and hospitable to the disciples. Those were the ones who were in risk of being stumbled from their autonomous relationship with God/Christ by the self-righteous, self-important, exclusivistic behaviour of the close guard disciples.
Hey Narkissos,
I agree with your assessment. While we were with the JW's we were taught that being part of the group equaled salvation. We had to become a baptized JW to have the hope that we "might" be saved at Amageddon. We had to be part of the "inner circle" to have any hope of survival. However, Jesus's words show that one did not have to be part of the inner circle to gain God's approval.
Jesus was warning those persons that felt they they were part of the inner circle not to "stumble these little ones." Those persons that were not part of the group but still practiced the things that Jesus's disciples practiced, could be stumbled if those that were part of the inner circle insisted that to gain salvation they would have to join the group. In this case, it was a person expelling demons in Jesus's name yet he was not part of the group.
A persons approval was not and has never been, based upon that person being part of the group to gain salvation. Various denominations, religions, cults, sects, individuals, etc. have used that group ethic to enforce their belief that clinging to the group, merits approval and salvation. Thus, those of us that bought into the JW belief system were convinced that adhering to the group would assure our salvation. That is why, for many of us, it was such a struggle to let go of the group control that the WT had over us. It is a very effective way to keep JW adherents in line.
Our relationship with God and Christ is a very personal relationship that can't be wrested away by organized religion. Although, organized religion has done that very thing in many instances because they have insisted that the laity must obey the clergy so as to have a continued approved relationship with God. That is exactly what the WTS has done towards its adherents. They have stumbled millions of these "little ones" because they insist on being the mediator between God and humans. Instead of recognizing that we are all autonomous beings that have the right to approach our creator in freedom, the WTS and many denominations have robbed many of the right to do just that. Thus, in my view, Jesus's words are that it would be finer for them to put a millstone around their necks and be tossed into the open sea.
Mr. Shakita
-
52
Do you struggle with some level of OCD?
by Billygoat init's funny how "split-personalitied" i am on some things.
i'm not really a neat person.
but there are things that i am very anal about.
-
-
Shakita
Hi Andi,
There is definitely a difference between being meticulous and being obsessive compulsive. There are those of us that like things in a certain way. Perhaps a person folds the towels in a certain way or likes to hang their toilet paper in a certain direction. The difference is that those without OCD don't feel a compulsion to do things in a certain way.
Those with OCD are compelled to perform certain tasks or rituals to blunt the fears that are tormenting them. For example an OCD sufferer may fear that the house may burn down and his loved ones perish in a fire if he doesn't make sure that the ignitors on the stove are off. The OCD sufferer will then physically touch the burner controls to make sure that they are off. Even though he is certain that the knobs are turned off, he feels compelled to continue touching the knobs over and over again. It is like he is stuck in a loop and can't make the connection that the knobs are in the off position. So, the OCD sufferer performs this ritual to try to blunt the fear that the house will burn down if he does not perform this ritual.
Another example is that involving fear of contamination from germs. The OCD sufferer may have the compulsion to wash his hands over and over again to blunt the fear that germs are everywhere and that if he doesn't continue washing his hands he will come down with some terrible disease. Some of the rituals that the OCD sufferer may perform are checking (repeatedly), counting, praying (obsessively), arranging items in a particular order or sequence, touching objects over and over again, etc. These rituals are performed because the obsessive believes that the performing of these rituals will prevent his worst fears from coming true. They are stuck in a world of abnormal fear.
There are medications that can help the OCD sufferer, but the most effective method to help the OCD sufferer involves exposing the OCD victim to his fears. A therapist will expose the patient to his fears over and over again until the compulsion to perform a ritual to blunt their abnormal fears begins to abate. It is a process that takes a long time to overcome, but it is worth it when the obssessive gets relief from his abnormal fears.
Mr. Shakita
-
29
What proportion of JW kids stay Witnesses? How about in your cong?
by jwfacts inthe wts is currently growing at about 1.3 % which is similar to the global propulation growth rate.
if all the jw kids stayed as jws then the religion could grow as quickly as it is now without any door knocking.. if in 2005 1.2 billion hours witnessing resulted in the religion only growing at the rate it should be naturally it suggests a lot a kids are leaving, or doorknocking is not having very good results.. of about 100 people born into the wts that i can remember in my congregations in australia about 3/4 of them have left.
is that the same in your congregation?
-
-
Shakita
Of about 100 people born into the WTS that i can remember in my congregations in Australia about 3/4 of them have left. Is that the same in your congregation?
Hey Jwfacts. That is about the same figure here in the US. A CO once told a friend of mine that about 75-80% of Witness kids leave the religion when they become of age. That should tell you something, you WT dunderheads, but I suspect it won't.
Mr. Shakita