Posts by Adonai438

37

Second death-what does it REALLY mean?

by FRUSR8TD in

in this thread... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28021&site=3.

bleep said:.

how can you be suffering when your dead?.

Adonai438

Hi FRUSTR8TD--

I think the main problem in answering this question is the assumption
of Jws that death means unconciousness or non-existance.
Death to the Body is not neccessarily the same as death to the spirit & soul. You see, people are created with three distinct parts to make a whole person. The Bible calls them Body, Soul, & Spirit.
To the jw those are all one in the same and cannot be separated thus to them death of the body is death to everything. This is not Biblical however. All 3 parts are distict and separate.
I have a bit of info typed up on this that I made for a friend and I'll send it email for you so as not to make a huge long post here anyone else that wants it can let me know.

The second death and the Lake of Fire is Gehenna in the Bible. This is where Satan, the antichrist, false prophet, and those who rejected God will spend eternity after the Judgement. It is the second death because at this point the ungodly have been resurected PHYSICALLY and are being judged according to the Law (having rejected God's grace they will be condemned by their own actions and sins). The eternal destiny for them is Hell, Gehenna, The Lake of Fire which is the second death. The second death is of the body having at this point, died twice. Their body will be consumed by the fire, their sould will perish, but their spirits will be alive and consious, living with their choice of separation from God. This will torment them and be agonizing forever.
***Proof that this is concious need only to be read in Revelation 19&20:
Rev.19:20-- The beast [also called the antichrist in other passages] and the false prophet[his sidekick] are captured and thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire.
Yatta yatta, 1000years passes in Rev.20:1-6
Rev.20:7-10--Satan's final defeat and is thrown into the Lake of Fire where THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ALREADY WERE AND THEY {obviosly together] WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER. Now, the Beast and false prophet were thrown in 1000 years before Satan will be but yet the inspired Book of Revelation says that they are still there when Satan is thrown in. And it states that together {so they must still exist] will be tormented forever. Let us not underestimate the word forever .
Rev.20:15--states that the ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire-- no where does it state that it is any different than the one that satan is cast into-- so doesn't it also follow that the people too will be concious?

So much for making this shorter but please reference the scriptures I am emailing as proof that there is conciousness after death.

Also keep in mind that there is a concious eternal life with God option to

<>< Angie

10

An Elder visited my Witness mother and said...

by morrisamb in

my mother felt the need to discuss the dateline episode.

the elder said he had not seen it but heard about it.

he said, "of course, sexual abuse is a crime.

Adonai438

YEs it does say that the story was compiled long before the Catholic story broke, I have it on tape
Point is, did they do it or not? They don't seem to be able to outright state the story is a lie because they have no proof of that and know better so they just defame the victims and those that are pointing out the WTs sin/error so jws won't listen to them.
For an Organization directly from God they sure are far from perfect.
I guess they are only perfect when they are putting everyone else down but are just human when their problems are pointed out.

8

a quick survey:

by dustrabbit in

jw
friends

all right, i'm still a newbie, but here's a great way for me to do some research: a survey!.

a. born into "the truth" (as the jws put it.).

b. joined between ages 4-12. c. joined between ages 13-21. d. joined after the age of 22.

Adonai438

1- C - converted at age 14
2- Family members invited, I was interested in church/God
3- a)Their doctrines are not biblical
b)Kind of. I liked the attention I got because my immediate
family was really messed up but it was always conditional to
agreeing with them. The proof: The elders made my aunt kick me
out at 15 for deciding to not be JW.
4- NA
5- High School and some College. I was still in HS when I left so
doesn't really apply. Am now a stay at home mom and very happy.
6- It was invented. It wasn't teaching what the Bible said but it
didn't matter to them. No matter how much scripture you had to
prove it they would just shrug it off saying that someone in the
WT knows why it's true so they trusted God's channel.
7- No experience here personally but my aunt has interacial kids and
now a marraige but in her KH it wasn't a big deal. Except that
they used it to brag how perfect and non prejudice jws are.
8- I am not asian but my younger cousins are and are still JWs.
The 2 oldest are Vietmanese american and the 2 younger are Korean
american. Actually the oldest is not a jw at heart but is forced
to meetings untill she turns 18 in a year.

Write if you want to know anything else :)
Angie <><

18

Question about WT study.

by jerome in

i read a thread recently where syn was discussing a watchtower book study.. is it really true that they ask you the questions at the end of the chapter and make you restate the a few sentences directly from the few paragraphs that you just read as the anwser?.

was syn neglecting anything of importance that would be needed to make a more accurate assesment of the situation?.

because reading back something that youve just read dosent sound very challenging.

Adonai438

Yeah, Syn hit the nail on the head, I'm afraid.
Have you ever looked at their books & Wts?
At the end of every page or section there are questions.
Not just any questions either, a regurgitated sentence from the above paragraph in the form of a question. Thus making the only 'right' answer a restatement of the sentance, again.

If I remeber right our book studies on Tuesdays were like this as well as my personal study, also the Sunday WT meeting.
The Thursday one was a sales pitch and talk night where the students gave their talks on 'Bible' topics ie: the outlines in the back of the New World Translation.

You think these scripts are bad, remember the reasoning Book?
In the front you have written out scripts of opening lines and what to say to various questions and claims in door to door 'service'.

Angie

4

JW's using apostate literature?

by SammyJoUK in

ok, hi and firstly if you get to see this more than once i apologise, but then i don't have a lot of choice, i need help quickly if possible.. i have a friend that i have been witnessing to for the past 6 years.. she has been in the witnesses for 25 years and yet god is moving.

an example of this, and it is by no means the best one, is that this week she put through my door two christian tracts that had been put together by sgm international ( http://www.infocomp.torun.pl/sgm/ ) .

the ones she gave me where not ones containing doctrinal issues, but basic gospel ones.. .

Adonai438

Technically, Apostate is only people who have left the WT.

Just because they were Christian in the Gospel sense doesn't mean they are apostate from the JWs. Although it does strike me as weird that they would try to use 'christendoms' 'evil' literature.

It sounds like it may be a personal thing on your friends part to try to relate their 'faith' to you. They think it will make you more open if they use something a bit more nuetral than the WT. Kinda like when the JW at your door askes you to pull out a King James Bible instead of using their NWT. This tactic is not encouraged or supported by the WT but they probably don't know your friend is doing it. They probably would only tell her to stop using it and only if she refused would it be a big problem.

Maybe you can seek out other tracts from the same publisher (if they are a good source & Christian) and offer them to her in return. Say she's already shown she accepts them as a source so she should listen to what they say.
My tactic if in your position would be this though:
Look at the info she left you. If its a basic Gospel thing then ask her if this is what she believes. When she says yes then proceed to show her how the Watchtower doesn't teach it and thus isn't teaching the true gospel. Show her in the Bible what the Gospel is and show her from the WTs how they don't believe it. Show her the truth and the difference. This will probably floor her as she isn't expecting it. Depending on her personality she may get deffensive, angry, cry, or show no reaction at all and high tail it out of there. She may come back with and elder or trusted member of the jws to try and answer your questions because she thinks she failed but still has the 'truth'. I pray that her dedication to God is more than to the WT cuz then the truth will win.

I have some stuff if you need help with contrasting the WT with the gospel and if you want to talk or pray let me know :)
Please email me anytime :)
God bless <>< Angie
[email protected]

15

John Chapter 3. How does it jive with JWs?

by FetterFree Annie in

can anyone answer a serious question?

since jws set so much store by bible study etc., i was wondering how they explain away john chapter 3. specifically where jesus tells nicodemus you have to be born again by the spirit of god in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

while i'm here i would also like to know about eph 2:5,6. it seems to me they work like trojans in order to attain a place in paradise- but this verse clearly states we are saved by god's grace and not our works.

Adonai438

As I was leaving the WT after reading the Bible for me-self (VERY Taboo!) I asked the same questions.
Their answers?
John 3 is only for the 144000. To them it is also not really an indwelling of the Holy Spirit like Paul teaches as they don't believe the Holy Spirit to be an actual person/personage. Therefore it's more of God's actions showing up in your life.
Oh, and lets not forget that those Christians that believe they are born-again and inwelt by the Holy Spirit are really demon posessed so you'd better stay away from them.
Ephesians 2 they just rationalize by saying God can't really be saying what he's saying. I mean God can't really be saying faith without works saves because jws are so perfect that God must really be pleased with them more than anyone else. Sound cynical? Their Pride makes them have a control complex on salvation- if they can't work for it then they can't control who gets it and who doesn't. You know what proverbs says about Pride cometh befor the fall!

As regards to James- It doesn't say works makes faith thus salvation, it is saying faith makes works and shows that we are saved. If you don't see love and good works then is there any faith? Maybe not and that needs to be examined by the person.

RE: Tongues equaling baptism in the Spirit. I believe in the Holy Spirit and being born-again and the gifts of the spirit etc....
It's all biblical and I have experienced it. BUT:
The Bible is rather clear on the extremes to those teachings:
It Says 2 specific things:
#1--- Do not Forbid the Speaking in Tongues:1 Corinthians 14:39

#2--- Not every Christian has the same gifts of the spirit and not
everyone is inspired with Tongues:
1 Corinthians 12-14
12:4-11-----different Gifts, One Spirit
12:27-30----each of us has a part in Gods church, lists Gods
appointments and lists tongues last. Not less important but not
obviously not something everyone does. Then retorical list of
questions Do all speak in tongues? Eagerly desire the greater
gifts.
14:1-5------Prophecy is greater than tongues- how can this be
if tongues is an automatic salvation indicator? If one is
desiring gifts, desire the ones that build up the church (vs12)

Basicly, Tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit but taking the extreme either way is unbiblical and divides Gods people unnecisarily. Being Born-again is your salvation- trusting God alone.

Interesting topics Fetter-free Annie Write me sometime at my email It's open to use <>< God bless, Angie

30

Dateline

by Jacinta in

my mom (a jw) watched the dateline program.

i asked her the next day what she thought of it.

she told me that erica was not a jw and that is why they did not support her in court.

Adonai438

How to deal with sinners in the church and how to deal with crimes are two different things.
While I know the jws are not the true christian church- they claim to be so they should have to go by the biblical guidlines in any 'punishment' etc.... The Bible never says that we can forgive sin FOR someone else. What I mean is that the WT has no right to declare the molester 'forgiven' completely for the victim. Yes, we should forgive everything done against us like the Bible says but that does not mean absolving the natural consequences of their crimes. Whether or not they are repentant has nothing to do with whether they should be turned over to the police for their crime.
Even Christians must face the music of the judicial system.
After all, the Bible says that we are to respect our government because it's authority is given by God for this time.
We are not talking about someone stealing a pen and confessing. We are talking about a physical crime against another person- mostly children. This is a serious crime that has serious consequences.

Our government, although not perfect, is not a fascist,evil, unfair entity attempting to control us. (At least not yet (LOL)) The punishment that is given to molesters is fair, and even too lenient at times. It's not like China where they arrest and kill christians and whole churches just for being Christian. The church does not have a command to shelter 'believers' from punishment for a crime. They can counsel and forgive and hold the criminal acountable as much as appropriate but this does not absolve the criminal from paying for his crime- forgiven or not. He may be forgiven by God, the church, even the victim, but he still has an earthly debt to pay. The promise for God to forgive all our sins based on accepting Jesus applies to eternally forgiven and the judgement but it never says people are entitled to earthly get out of jail free cards because of it.

Sorry I tend to ramble but ultimately, What should the WT do?
Well, first of all trust in the true God not CT Russels, but aside from that:
admit their mistakes and change. Change policy. While confidentiality may apply between victim and 'clergy' or offender and 'clergy' they can inform the victim of their rights to involve the police and even assist them in doing so. They need not divulge conversations, just support the victim and let the evidence be weighed by the justice system. They should NOT encourage or threaten the victim to keep quiet.

21

My JW Friend Has a Response to DATELINE

by Mister Biggs in

as most of you know, i am an 'undercover brother' (someone who appears to be an exemplary jw but is making strides on escaping).. my wife is a loyal jw.

since we had the book study last night i needed to tape the show.

(by the way, my wife knows about my doubts...).

Adonai438

Hi PraiseJah
Welcome! We'd love to hear more from you.

HAs the WT officially denied the claims and cases? If I am informed correctly, they have not but called the victims and advocates apostate and Jehovah haters. What do they do instead? They pursue DFing the people for what? Sowing Discord among believers. Not for lying or false reports but sowing discord. Says a little something, No?

As to what should be done, any criminal needs to face the music so to speak. Whether they are religious or not or repentant or not. I happen to be a christian but would never consider concealing crimes just because the offender was sorry and asked for help. Goodness, who gave the WT the right to forgive the molesters for the victims? You can't 'forgive' something for someone else. Even repentant criminals must take the consequeces for their actions- including Jail.

25

Hi, I'm new

by Sadie5 in

jw
friends

i've been lurking here for some time and decided to take the plunge and jump in.

i was a witness for 16 years, baptized in 1981 when i was in my early 20's.

brought husband, mother and kids in.

Adonai438

Hi Sadie
Nice to 'meet' you
I myself have been out of the borg and now a christian for about 7years now and it has been wonderful!
Email ANYTIME to chat or whatever you want
God bless <>< Angie

29

One Question JWs Should Ask Themselves

by Eutapro in

jw
friends

do i want to be like the ex-jws on this board?

Adonai438

Non draws the line when it comes to those who hate Jehovah and those that practice sin. Non do not want to be buddy buddy and hobknob with worldings who cuss, drink too much, are homosexual or who fornicate. If you hang with the ungodly, guess what you gonna be.

I too saw this interesting.
Is Non also familiar with the scripture In Matthew chapter 5:43-48:

"You have heard it said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven. HE causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect."

I believe another Gospel records "Even the pagans love those who love them".

True Christians love everyone.