The more our personal character defines itself, the less we are in need of any role model.
I often wondered how the "juvenile Christ-character" we received from tradition could be a model to anyone over 40.
Narkissos
JoinedPosts by Narkissos
-
16
Do We Need Role Models?
by Satanus inwhen i was young, i used to have role models.
my dad, probably up to when i was about 9 or 10. from about age 11 to about 16, it was the dub family that studied w us at that time.
they reintegrated us into the borg, after we had drifted away.
-
-
-
6
Death wiping away you sins
by crinklestein infrom what i remember one of the dubs most important doctrines is that when you die your sins are wiped clean because the wages of sin is death.
so when you die you can no longer be judged on your sins because you have paid the price for those sins with your death.
if this is the case i have a couple of problems with that.. #1: they are placing the value of your death above the value of jesus' death.
-
-
Narkissos
Perhaps you can sin twice as much on your next life.
Btw, the culprit is Paul's own fuzzy argument, in Romans 6:7: "For whoever has died is freed (lit. justified) from sin."
-
15
Me and my shadow
by peacefulpete inone of the more shamelessly superstitious passages in the nt is acts 5:14-16 : .
"and more believing ones were added to the lord, multitudes of both men and women; so as to carry out the sick in the streets, and place them on cots and matresses, that at the comming of peter, if even his shadow might overshadow some of them....and they would one and all be cured.
this obvious proto-catholic passage is nothing short of saint worship.
-
-
Narkissos
Just another literary topos.
The same with Paul in 19:11f:
"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them."
-
49
did Jesus exist and does it matter?
by zen nudist inhttp://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan01/jesus120101.html
check this out and let me know what you think..... my personal opinion so far, with all that i have learned to date and being out of jw'dom for 13+ years.
is that jesus likely never existed.
-
-
Narkissos
I perceive it as metaphorical, or poetical.
We have no problem doing that with the old gods of antiquity, whose myths and stories we enjoy. We wouldn't even think of rejecting them as bs, just because nobody makes them anymore an issue of heavy, serious, realistic truth. One has to break mentally free from the monotheistic system of belief (realizing that "God" or the "Christ character" are not anymore real, though no less interesting, than the polytheistic gods and heroes) in order to appreciate the Bible on a literary level. On such a level, my interest and joy at reading the Gospels -- which led me out of the WT -- is still the same, or perhaps even greater.
-
49
did Jesus exist and does it matter?
by zen nudist inhttp://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan01/jesus120101.html
check this out and let me know what you think..... my personal opinion so far, with all that i have learned to date and being out of jw'dom for 13+ years.
is that jesus likely never existed.
-
-
Narkissos
Hooberus: although quoting Bible verses might not be the best answer to my previous remarks, I'll do pick up 2 Corinthians 11:4 which shows that in Paul's time it was possible to preach "another Jesus" than his. Namely, a Jewish Jesus (v. 22-23) who was probably somewhat closer to the historical figure. This predication could have been interesting, but it would not have been "Christian" as we understand the word (indirectly from Paul). So I totally agree with you when you say that the "Christian faith" is based on the N.T. Christ(s). But claiming that it has to be historical as well is hardly more than a blind assertion IMO.
For the rest, I'm afraid I've had all the salvation I could take...
LT: I think the experience I had when leaving the JWs (18 years ago) was not very different from yours. Faith and love of the N.T. (especially Johannine perhaps) Christ. The only difference is that in time I had to construe things differently on an intellectual level. But I still treasure this experience. Perhaps even more since I don't try to relate it to any absolute "truth".
-
18
Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah vs. Greek Scripture Jehovah
by Black Man ini've always had a problem with the hebrew scriptures and the way god was portrayed.
it's like talkin' about 2 different gods.
on one hand you've got a petty, murderous, jealous, insecure sounding god (hebrew) and on the other you've got someone who is supposed to be the epitome of love.
-
-
Narkissos
In fact the historical Jesus may have been a much more violent character than the Gospels would have us believe -- and that would explain the crucifixion...
Btw, LOL @ Narkos(s)is! (the misspelling reminded me how soporific I can get...)
-
18
Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah vs. Greek Scripture Jehovah
by Black Man ini've always had a problem with the hebrew scriptures and the way god was portrayed.
it's like talkin' about 2 different gods.
on one hand you've got a petty, murderous, jealous, insecure sounding god (hebrew) and on the other you've got someone who is supposed to be the epitome of love.
-
-
Narkissos
Sorry SS, I had not read your post.
-
18
Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah vs. Greek Scripture Jehovah
by Black Man ini've always had a problem with the hebrew scriptures and the way god was portrayed.
it's like talkin' about 2 different gods.
on one hand you've got a petty, murderous, jealous, insecure sounding god (hebrew) and on the other you've got someone who is supposed to be the epitome of love.
-
-
Narkissos
Let alone the fact that there is no "Jehovah" in the N.T., I'm not sure "God" has changed that much. Read the eschatological material in the synoptic Gospels (Mark 13; Matthew 24--25; Luke 17; 21), the Ananias-Sapphira or Herod stories in Acts, the anti-gnostic epistle of Jude (// 2 Peter), or the entire Revelation and you will find that the Christian God, in some of his depictions, has not really given up killing people he dislikes.
Just think of the tone of what is probably the first known Christian writing, and its bearing on the later history of Christian antisemitism -- 1 Thessalonians 2:14ff: "the [Jews], who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God's wrath has overtaken them at last." Ironically the "Jews" might include Jesus' own movement in Judaea, currently led by James, which opposes the Pauline "mission"!
In fact the problem of the violence of God is present and diversely appreciated in the NT as much as in the OT. Think of Jonah for instance, where Yhwh wants to destroy Nineveh and then renounces...
-
49
did Jesus exist and does it matter?
by zen nudist inhttp://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan01/jesus120101.html
check this out and let me know what you think..... my personal opinion so far, with all that i have learned to date and being out of jw'dom for 13+ years.
is that jesus likely never existed.
-
-
Narkissos
ThiChi: I agree with you that there is no point in trying to correct the Bible on a historical basis. The historical Jesus is simply not the Christian "Christ", and his accurate biography would never amount to a "gospel" (Schweitzer and Bultmann's conclusions already, from two different perspectives). The best respect we can give to the Biblical texts is to read them as they are -- that is, as literature; not expecting them to be historically accurate and not rejecting them when we find they are not. On this standpoint many "believers" and "unbelievers" might easily agree. What always amazes me is the reluctance of most believers to admit that the material basis for their faith is literary (or scriptural), not historical.
-
78
Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him.....
by sandy ini have been watching a couple of the movies retelling the life of christ and i was wondering about the words jesus said to the criminal who asked him to remember him.. the king james version reads: and jesus said unto him, "verily i say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise" luke 23:43. the new world translation reads: and he said to him "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.
" luke 23:43. the movie i was watching quoted or at least was closer to the king james version.
maybe i am wrong but the same scriptures seem to imply two different things.
-
-
Narkissos
Crinklestein: You wrote: "The NT is very clear that... The scriptures point out clearly... Paul says... It is also said..."
Setting aside Paul's glasses for a moment you could perhaps find many different lines of thinking in the N.T. Why not give it a try with Matthew's Gospel or the Epistle of James?
Peacefulpete: interesting remark about Maimonides. My guess is that in the early Hasidean thinking which is at the root of the Essene and Pharisee movements resurrection and immortality of the soul were not seen as contradictory. Perhaps even only two ways of expressing the same fundamental belief.
Btw, what is the PE book? (I've been out for 18 years...)