Thanks for the review Leolaia. In my mind also the first Petrine tradition was Syrian, so I think I'll have no problem with Lapham's general outlook. One question though (before I find the book): how does Lapham interpret the Silvanus-Babylon-Mark conclusion in 1P 5:12-14? This really sounds Roman -- but may be a late addition to an Eastern epistle all the same...
Narkissos
JoinedPosts by Narkissos
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the man with the key
by boatman incould any one tell why god gave peter some keys was it to open things or close them
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Service meeting - Don't talk to disfellowshipped ones at the Memorial!
by truthseeker inat the service meeting last night, we were told that even at the memorial, we should not talk to disfellowshipped individuals.
also, i don't know if there is any truth in this, but disfellowshipped ones are generally not invited to the memorial.
when did the "memorial season" begin?
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Narkissos
They use the Memorial much like a funeral talk
Right on the mark.
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I just realized somethign about the WT and UN and France
by dustyb inokay, the french dislike the united states.
the french voted against going to war with iraq because it was a us resolution.
the wt was a us based ngo-dpi.
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Narkissos
Hey DustyB,
I didn't say "US go home", to the contrary I mean have a look abroad (preferably unarmed) and you might reassess your chain of causalities. And perhaps realize that "dislike of the US" is not so frequent or strong as you think and is hardly the First Cause of anything anyway. Things are just a bit more complex. As regards the dealings of the French tax administration with the local WT, I think they are fully justified in view of the French traditional secular policy which regards them as any association. The fact is, however, that there has been considerable pressure from the US Department of State on European institutions to protect more or less harmful sects such as JWs or Scientology, on the grounds of the American view of "freedom of religion"...
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the man with the key
by boatman incould any one tell why god gave peter some keys was it to open things or close them
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Narkissos
Wow! Now the other references I had dropped in Revelation do make sense:
And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit (abyss); he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given authority like the authority of scorpions of the earth. (...) They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. (9:1-11)
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while. (20:1ff)
(Btw, I suggest we now call the Apostle Peter InfernalPete to avoid any confusion with PeacefulPete )
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I just realized somethign about the WT and UN and France
by dustyb inokay, the french dislike the united states.
the french voted against going to war with iraq because it was a us resolution.
the wt was a us based ngo-dpi.
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Narkissos
Positively amazing.
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Jewish Passover Starts evening 4/5, WTS 4/4, why the difference?
by blondie inhas anyone attending still noticed the difference?.
has any explanation been given at the kh?.
blondie
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Narkissos
JC... just a word of caution: I'm afraid your whole theory is soluble in linguistics. Beware!
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the man with the key
by boatman incould any one tell why god gave peter some keys was it to open things or close them
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Narkissos
Welcome aboard Boatman!
One could add as an echo to Leolaia's comments the so-called "Johannine Pentecost" (John 20:21ff):
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."Peacefulpete:
Leolaia disagrees with Narkissos and I about the character of Peter and this verse is an example of our different opinions affecting the interpretation. Leolaia sees a later redaction (amendment and addition) as responsible for the identification of Peter as the holder of the keys and foremost leader of Church. I see the passage as a whole as a late insertion to provide legitamacy to the protoCatholic hierchy.(perhaps using familiar gnostic language in a new and literal way).
I have not checked yet the new reference on Petrine tradition Leolaia referred us to. Whatever the case, it is very interesting to see that the motif of binding and loosing is independent. My further question would be: is it identical with the key motif? There seems to be a distinct tradition, implying authority, behind it (Isaiah 22:22; Revelation 1:18; 3:7; note also the relation with "Hades", both in Revelation and Matthew 16).
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Did Jesus pray to himself ?
by hooberus inwhile trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.
thus they are able to speak to one another.
so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.
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Narkissos
An interesting, or funny, byzantine detail: according to classical trinitarian theology, Jesus is not a human person (persona, hypostasis). His human nature is said to be anhypostatic (literally, unpersonal), or borne as it were by the enhypostatic logos (identified to the divine Person). This is very nice, as Greek theology in general (try also perichoresis -- the mutual immanence of the trinity persons -- sometime); Karl Barth has wonderful pages on this doctrine in his Kirkliche Dogmatik. But through such a prism the Markan Jesus, for instance, becomes quite meaningless (you have to postulate the divine person yields a lot to the human nature, or is always pretending...)
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Has anyone ever munched at the memorial?
by Sirius Dogma ini have always wanted to do that at a kingdom hall.
over the past few years i celebrated pesach (passover) with some jewish friends and it was so cool to be able to munch the food.
besides the jewish tradition was much more fun and was more like a party.
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Narkissos
Yes, once, in 1986. A few weeks later I was disfellowshipped (not for partaking, actually: I had a few doctrinal questions to answer on which I could no longer agree).
Oh, in fact, twice! For the following year I went to another KH as a perfect stranger and partook again, with everyone staring at me... I dropped it since
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JW, a Protestant Religion
by Gerard ini was just surfing thefreedictionary.com and found their definition of jehovah witnesses: a protestant denomination (!?!?
protestant denomination
noun
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Narkissos
I don't see the problem in calling the JWs Protestant (even though "Protestant sect" would be more appropriate). They are historically related to Second Adventism, they share the Protestant Bible Canon, their ecclesiology has a lot in common with Anabaptism, Baptism and Darbyism. This clashes with their self-definition but it is objectively true I think...