Narkissos

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Posts by Narkissos

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  17

  What are some Bible verses that contradict (or weaken) the DF policy?

  by somebodylovesme in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  .. let me say straight off that i am not that familiar with the bible (my husband is an inactive jw.. i never was in the religion).

  but i thought i read once a bible story in which jesus went to visit someone who was seen as an immoral person, and said that they needed him the most?

  are there any other verses/stories that carry this theme and would weaken the jw's policy of disfellowshipping?.

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  Narkissos

  Perhaps Matthew 13:24ff could help:

  He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?' He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.
  Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.' "

  But, to be honest, there is much intolerance, and exclusion, in the Bible itself (including this text). So I think the best answer will always be a shrug.
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  29

  French Press Not Objective in US Iraq War

  by ThiChi in

  1. social
  2. current

  journalist lambasts french war coverage

  tue dec 30, 5:52 am et

  by elaine ganley, associated press writer

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  Narkissos

  You don't say?

  Ain't we bad...
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  5

  New manuscripts

  by Wallflower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  on another post shotgun quoted a scripture from john 8.. i have a copy of the new international version bible, first published in 1973 by the international bible society.. regarding the above scripture it says and i quote : .

  "the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have john 7:53-8:11".

  i'd be glad if anyone can shed any light on what are "the earliest and most reliable manuscripts" and who are the "other ancient witnesses"?

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  Narkissos

  Another interesting element is that where the text is present (in SOME manuscripts of the Western group) 1) it is often "marked" as spurious by signs like asterisks and obeli, and 2) it is not always inserted at the same place (mainly after John 7:52, but also after 7:36, 7:44, 21:25 or even Luke 21:38).
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  26

  The longest registered newbie

  by greatcrowd in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am an ex-witness who faded from the religion about 4 years ago.

  interestingly, i am not new to this board because i have been lurking here for over 2 years and enjoying the great wealth of spiritual food here.

  i feel so connected with many of the posters here because of my passive involvement with this board.

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  Narkissos

  Welcome Great Crowd!

  I hope to read more from you.
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  49

  did Jesus exist and does it matter?

  by zen nudist in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan01/jesus120101.html

  check this out and let me know what you think..... my personal opinion so far, with all that i have learned to date and being out of jw'dom for 13+ years.

  is that jesus likely never existed.

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  Narkissos

  Sorry I didn't read the previous two posts before sending mine.

  The texts referred to by Kenneson in the authentic Pauline letters (in which I would not include Ephesians) are clearly centered on Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. One could add the "Last Supper" tradition in 1 Corinthians 11, which is directed linked to the Passion story.

  Just to be clear, I consider the Acts a very late pseudo-historical synthesis of the Hellenistic and Pauline traditions with very few and distorted elements from the Nazorean and Johannine circles (see the current "Josephus-Luke connection" thread).
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  49

  did Jesus exist and does it matter?

  by zen nudist in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan01/jesus120101.html

  check this out and let me know what you think..... my personal opinion so far, with all that i have learned to date and being out of jw'dom for 13+ years.

  is that jesus likely never existed.

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  Narkissos

  I think Jesus existed but is practically unrelated to the "Christ" character we usually associate him with.

  To me, the best evidence of Jesus' existence is to be found -- ironically -- in Paul's letters. Ironically, because Paul couldn't care less about who Jesus was and what he taught. But the fact is that Paul's epistles, already in the 40's, presuppose a tradition about Jesus as a crucified Savior in some fringes of the Hellenistic diaspora judaism. It will be Paul's work to manipulate the groups of people associated with this belief against mainstream Judaism AND against the Palestinian Nazorean movement, associated with James the brother of Jesus, which was the very origin of the Hellenistic Jesus' belief though.

  Does it matter? IMO, not so much. For the "Christ" character which is central to the Christian religion has very little to do with the historical Jesus. The synoptic Gospels are essentially a feedback from the Hellenistic tradition, implying many "pagan" motives. The Gospel of John adds to this its distinctive protognostic trend, which is probably alien to the historical Jesus too. The historical Jesus, as Schweitzer already concluded one century ago, has very little interest for us. And the "Christ" who became central to our culture is basically a literary character.
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  22

  Choosing another religion?

  by asleif_dufansdottir in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a discussion on another thread made me wonder about what happens when we finally come to the conclusion that the society is full of sh*t.

  did you take some time to 'get your religious bearings' before contemplating joining another religion?

  or, was it a strong religious belief that brought you out of the jws?

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  Narkissos

  1. Became a JW (with part of my family) at age 13.

  2. Became a pioneer at 18 and then a Bethel member.

  3. Was DF'd for Christ-centered apostasy at age 27.

  4. Associated a few weeks later with an Evangelical church, then studied theology, quickly realized I couldn't be an Evangelical, shared in Biblical critical research and edition.

  5. When my daughter was born (7 years ago), realized I didn't want to transmit her any religious education -- so personally I was through with it. Almost never went back to church since, only sharing from time to time with a Liberal Protestant theological fellowship which accepts my current atheistic views.
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  11

  voice of thunder

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in john 12 jesus prayers to his father and a voice from heaven responds.

  verse 30 has jesus saying that the voice was for the crowd's benefit not his.

  interestingly the passage also says that those around him heard only thunder, interpreting this as a message from heaven.

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  Narkissos

  No problem. It was just a marginal thought anyway.

  I didn't answer your second post. Surely the Jerusalem tradition is very important in GJohn, and a priestly relationship of the Beloved disciple remains an interesting hypothesis -- although one must also take into account his apparent Samaritan sympathies (chapter 4). However I think I have never heard the argument for a feminine authorship: maybe in some future thread?
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  8

  Just for chuckles...years 365 or 360

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i don't want to begin another innane debate about what the 7 times/years passage in daniel 'meant'.

  my point is a simple one, according to the wt the key to the "prophecy" involves deciferring the length of a year/time as 360 days long.

  then assign a year for each day.

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  Narkissos

  As far as I remember, the only "basis" for the 360-day years was Revelation's apparently equating the 1,260 days with 3 "times" and a half. I don't know if there is any correspondence in Jewish apocalyptic circles.

  It's interesting to remember that in Qumran, where apocalyptic literature is prominent (suggesting apocalyptic developed in alternative priestly circles), the solar (365-day) calendar as exposed in the Book of Jubilees is highly favored (implying the religious festivals fall every year on the same day of the week, and avoiding problematic coincidence with sabbaths). The Enochian literature is also very important in Qumran, and even in the Genesis notice Henoch appears already as a "solar" figure, whose "perfect" life cycle is 365 years...
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  11

  voice of thunder

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in john 12 jesus prayers to his father and a voice from heaven responds.

  verse 30 has jesus saying that the voice was for the crowd's benefit not his.

  interestingly the passage also says that those around him heard only thunder, interpreting this as a message from heaven.

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  Narkissos

  Peacefulpete: Of course I was not implying any "anti-Baalist" polemic in GJohn! I was just trying a comparison, which came naturally to my mind because of the topic. Apart from the thunder itself, the only common point I can see between 1K 19 and John is the pedagogic thrust of the text, which starts from a popular belief (the Baalistic Yhwh implied in 1K 18; the pharisaic-apocalyptic system of mediation with God in GJohn) and departs from it to lead the readers into a supposedly "higher" form of belief. That's a constant rhetorical process in John (other good examples are the treatment of "resurrection" in chapter 11, or "eschatology" in chapter 14).