Posts by Narkissos

14

Was Jesus Christs' physical body disposed of?

by hooberus in

the watchtower teaches that the body of jesus christ was "disposed of" after three days.

the scriptures however say:.

note the following:the same temple that was to be destroyed was to be raised up: the "it" in the phrase "raise it up" clearly refers back to "this temple".

Narkissos

Hooberus: I won't discuss here the original meaning of the so-called "great apocalypse of Isaiah" (chapters 24--27), the original perspective of which is quite different from Christian teaching -- even if Christian writers later used some of it.

As for Pauline teaching, you write:

Paul also taught that the Christians' "mortal bodies" would be quickened (made alive). When the Christains mortal bodies are made immortal by resurrection then as Isaiah said (Paul even quoted Isaiah) death would be swallowed up in victory.
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:54
The above phrase "this mortal" clearly referrs to this mortal body. Paul in Romans 8:11 and 1 Corinthians 15:54 is talking about mortal bodies being made alive (not discarded, and not remaining in the grave). Paul taught the resurrection of the body. Paul hoped for the redemption of his body, not his body being discarded forever, but it (his body) being redeemed or transformed (Phil. 3:21).
"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

It is very interesting that all the texts you quote do not refer to resurrection from the dead, but to the ultimate fate of the believers living to see Christ's parousia (Paul expecting to be one of them). This category is singled out from 1 Thessalonians 4:15 on: we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord. It is also in view in 1 Corinthians 15:50ff:

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

So "this perishable body" is not the body of the dead (this body is not "what is raised", as the previous seed analogy clearly states, v. 37), but the body of the living which has to be "changed" in order to match the imperishable and immortal quality of the body "given" (v. 38) the resurrected. Approximately the same idea recurs in 2 Corinthians 5:4:

For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed (i.e., by death) but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

In Romans 8:11 resurrection from the dead is just not at stake. Paul is writing to living believers and does not anticipate their death. Remember, the Lord comes soon, and "salvation is nearer to us now than when we became believers" (13:11)... However the eschatological scenario becomes less detailed as time goes by.

Remember: I just speak of the Pauline view. The (later) Gospels' "empty tomb" stories, on the other hand, clearly imply some sort of "resurrection of the body". Yet it has to be something more than "ressuscitation of a corpse", if Jesus' resurrection is to be any different from, say, Lazarus' or the widow's son...

19

Apocryphal Jewish Tradition in the New Testament

by Leolaia in

the nt frequently refers to people and events of the ot, but time and again these references include details and assumptions that do not occur in the original ot narratives.

but these same elements are found, time and again, in extrabiblical jewish tradition.

taken together, we see that the nt writers drew on popular tradition and haggadah on the ot texts and thus preserved traces of these ancient expansions of biblical stories in their own writings.

Narkissos

Hi Leolaia,

No comment here except that this collection and synthesis of precious scattered information is very much welcome, and I do hope you go on. I wish I had come across a similar summary of evidence much earlier in my life. Thanks again!

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

Narkissos

As I don't claim the "Christian" label anymore, my personal views are of little interest here. However I think an objective fact (yes!) does belong here: from the very beginning of Christianity there have been several types of Christianity struggling or putting up with each other. The wisdom-type Christianity Leolaia has very aptly described is one of them. Paul's and John's Christianities, for instance, are definitely different from it and from each other...

14

Was Jesus Christs' physical body disposed of?

by hooberus in

the watchtower teaches that the body of jesus christ was "disposed of" after three days.

the scriptures however say:.

note the following:the same temple that was to be destroyed was to be raised up: the "it" in the phrase "raise it up" clearly refers back to "this temple".

Narkissos

As to the Pauline concept of spiritual resurrection (egeirô = awakening), I think 1 Corinthians 15:35ff is appropriate for the present discussion:

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The "spiritual body" is later (?) thought as coexisting with the earthly one:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling-- if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

This, of course, is Paul's evolving view, not the later antidocetic teaching of bodily resurrection as exemplified by Luke...

10

angels

by yentel in

do angels get tired?.

see daniel 9:21[nwt]

Narkissos

There's a probable translation mistake here, arising from the similarity of two Hebrew roots: y`p, meaning "to tire, to be tired", and `wp meaning "to fly". The text may actually mean "in swift fly" (NRSV). However, a pun might also be intended: the root y`p recurs several time in Isaiah 40:28ff, with the image of a soaring eagle in v. 31.

In the Daniel context, the idea of (Daniel's? the angel's) tiredness might have been suggested by 10:7ff, describing both the effect of the vision on Daniel and the struggle of the angel to deliver it:

I, Daniel, alone saw the vision; the people who were with me did not see the vision, though a great trembling fell upon them, and they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone to see this great vision. My strength left me, and my complexion grew deathly pale, and I retained no strength. Then I heard the sound of his words; and when I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a trance, face to the ground. But then a hand touched me and roused me to my hands and knees. He said to me, "Daniel, greatly beloved, pay attention to the words that I am going to speak to you. Stand on your feet, for I have now been sent to you." So while he was speaking this word to me, I stood up trembling. He said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia, and have come to help you understand what is to happen to your people at the end of days. For there is a further vision for those days."

1

The New Testament Greatest Events

by DevonMcBride in

if the events below had actually happened, something of this magnitude would have been the greatest period in the history of the world.

however, in all of recorded history, there is not one mention of these events.

the events .

Narkissos

Hi Devon,

Can you spell LITERARY FICTION?

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/66387/1.ashx

14

Was Jesus Christs' physical body disposed of?

by hooberus in

the watchtower teaches that the body of jesus christ was "disposed of" after three days.

the scriptures however say:.

note the following:the same temple that was to be destroyed was to be raised up: the "it" in the phrase "raise it up" clearly refers back to "this temple".

Narkissos

While some (antidocetic) texts insist heavily on realistic, bodily resurrection (and Hooberus won't miss to point them out), others do suggest a difference. So the Pauline and post-Pauline texts which advocate a spiritual resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:45: Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Peter 3:18: He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

This may account for the apparition stories where Jesus is not immediately recognized:

John 20:14ff: When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabbouni!" (which means Teacher).

Another such recognition story occurs in Luke 24:13ff (the Emmaus disciples). Luke inserts an antidocetic remark in v. 16: their eyes were kept from recognizing him. This is Luke's explanation, very consistent with his "realistic" view of resurrection which reaches a climax in v. 36ff:

While they were talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." They were startled and terrified, and thought that they were seeing a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. While in their joy they were disbelieving and still wondering, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate in their presence.

However, the Emmaus story is alluded to with a very different explanation in Pseudo-Mark 16:12 (unauthentic to Mark yet canonical):

After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.

The "spiritual resurrection" texts are quite well-known from JWs, who tend to explain away the "realistic resurrection" stories. On the other hand, the advocates of bodily resurrection tend to explain away the other texts (yet feel somewhat uneasy with the "identical Jesus" appearing and disappearing suddenly). Respect for all the texts implies, IMO, admitting that at least two notions of "resurrection" are struggling with each other. And, from a historical standpoint, everything shows that the "spiritual resurrection" concept is the older Christian belief.

12

The Gaia hypothesis is simply that idea that the Earth is a living organism

by frankiespeakin in

interesting c&p plus link:

this, however, lead to lovelock perceiving the earth as a complete whole.

while on a walk in the countryside in england, lovelock described his hypothesis to his neighbor william golding (author of lord of the flies), and asked advice concerning a suitable name for it.

Narkissos

Gaiagirl: just now I notice your Fantasia avatar which is a pretty good illustration of the subject...

15

w00t! HAPPY FAT TUESDAY!

by Valis in

jw
friends

this was me the last time i got to go...sheesh i stayed loaded for 6 days in a row...slept on st charles waiting for the parades..*lol* i wished i hadn't lost all those images.

why mardi gras is better than other holidays.. on thanksgiving you watch a parade and eat turkey.. at mardi gras you watch parades and eat popeye's fried chicken.. on halloween little kids dress up in costume and beg for treats.. at mardi gras everyone dresses up in costume and begs for treats.. on easter you hunt for colored eggs.. at mardi gras you hunt for a restroom.. on valentines you give the ladies candy and hope for a kiss.. at mardi gras you give the ladies beads and hope for more.. on st. patrick's day you drink green beer.. at mardi gras you turn green from your first meal of the day, a lucky dog with everything on it at 7am.. on the 4th of july we watch fireworks and drink beer.. at mardi gras we watch fireworks and drink hurricanes.. on new year's day we party like there is no tomorrow and make resolutions.. at mardi gras we party for days and days and ask for absolution.. on labor day you are reminded to be grateful for your job.. at mardi gras the last thing you can remember is your job.. on your birthday you eat cake and remember you are a year older :-(.

at mardi gras you eat king cake and are reminded to make your reservations for next year!.

Narkissos

Tonight I went to the nearby town with my daughter to share in the opening of the local feast (a 1200 y-o. tradition there), with the burning of the winter strawman in the main place. However, Louisiana seems to make much more of it than we French do! Enjoy folks!

4

Jesus quoted from non-Biblical source?

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

at 2 timothy 3:16, the writer claims that 'all scripture is inspired by god'....while at john 7:38, jesus is quoted as saying ....'just as the scripture has said "out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow"'.

exactly what book is jesus here quoting?

is there a verse in the bible which actually said this, and which had already been written when jesus was alive?

Narkissos

Hi Gaiagirl,

Some previous discussion on http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66015/1.ashx