Hi Mulan: I don't recall Harry's wife's name. But, it must be the same Harry Snow if he ate his lunch and did not have pickey meal restrictions. His hair was snow white when I met him. While he ate well, he seem to have a good matabolism, and stayed thin. I just wish that the Iron Tower had more COs, DOs like him ... and in fact if the Governing Body was made up of men like this, we would not even need ex-JW support, because these men would have the balls to end the idiotic doctrines and stick by the Bible. - Amazing
Amazing
JoinedPosts by Amazing
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TRIBUTE to a CIRCUIT OVERSEER
by Amazing inover the years, circuit servants and then circuit overseers came and went.
i can only recall a handfull because the rest were unimpressive or i was not real active during the visit of some.
most cos that i recall were humdrum with perhaps some single interesting feature or personality quirk.
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TRIBUTE to a CIRCUIT OVERSEER
by Amazing inover the years, circuit servants and then circuit overseers came and went.
i can only recall a handfull because the rest were unimpressive or i was not real active during the visit of some.
most cos that i recall were humdrum with perhaps some single interesting feature or personality quirk.
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Amazing
Over the years, Circuit Servants and then Circuit Overseers came and went. I can only recall a handfull because the rest were unimpressive or I was not real active during the visit of some. Most COs that I recall were humdrum with perhaps some single interesting feature or personality quirk. They all had irritating qualities and held a poor view of the average JW. But there was one CO who impressed me in a positive way, and in some ways, I wondered if he might be one who would ever leave the organization. I will reveal his name, because even his name was intersting.
This CO had been a JW before World War II. During that war, he was incarcerated in federal prison for refusing to submit to the draft. His prison stories and experiences are unique and reveal that he, unlike many JWs learned something about life, and developed an attitude that is reflective of a person with integrity.
He arrives at our Hall for his visit. The CO was a normal in his CO routine, meetings briefly with the PO and myself, setting up his trailer outside the Kingdom Hall, and arranging for Field Service, meeting parts, meals, shepherding visits, and the like.
But, right away I was surprised to learn that he and his wife had no particular meal needs. Every other Co and their wife I have met have always had some picky concern with food, and it goes something like this: Can't have mayonaise, can't have lunchmeat, can't have cheese, only drinks water, must stay away from this, that, and the other. Okay, I am cool when it comes to not eating certain foods, but it seems like the Society always manages to appoint men to CO that can't eat anything. Or after becoming a CO their appetite gets ruined. But this CO had no special request ... he was a normal human being! Yippie!
During his first meeting with me as SEC: He did request the accounts records and Pub Record File Cards as expected, but he did not make the usual nasty remarks that most COs make. Normally, the CO will keep these records than give them back at the main meeting with the whole body of Elders. Instead, he briefly reviewed the accounts, and said they looked well maintained, and handed them back. He then glanced at a few Pub Cards, and handed the box back. He said that he wanted me to note the average hours of the men would would be appointed as Elders or MSs. He handed the box back with the comment that it looks like everyone is getting some time in and that we must be doing a good job as Elders.
Meeting with the Elders During this meeting, the time came around for recommending appointments. We got to one brother who had moved in, and with him was a glowing letter from his previous congregation. Before I could read the letter, one of the Elders objected to the brother because his wife was no longer a regular Publisher. It was then the CO first showed signs of consternation.
He asked the Elder what the brother's wife had to do with being a mature and qualified Christian. The Elder said that since she is a JW, that his taking the lead would show in the family, and demonstrate his example as a family man. The CO then tossed the Bible into the Elder's lap and said , "Show me, I'm from Missouri." The Elder said, 'What?' The Co said, "Don't play dumb, You know what I mean. Show me from the Bible where it says that an Elder's wife must be active door to door in order to get appointed."
The Elder hummned and hawed, and said that he thought sure that the Society has said that an Elder's wife would reflect his role as a spiritually mature man, and his children as well. He must be an example to other families if he is to take the lead.
The CO pointed out that the Society may well have 'suggested' something along those lines in a narrow context, but that the governing criteria is the Bible. He said by that Elder's logic, then if a congregation has any irregular or inactive Pubs, then that is a reflection on the whole body of Elders, and that would mean he should remove every one of us. He said that we need to stop treating the Society like a law office, and stand up and be Christians who abide by the Bible.
While I am in a different place in my mental and emotional evolution now, I can say that the COs words about the Bible warmed my heart at the time, and made me feel he was a unique individual toughened by his prison experience, and more independent than maybe the Society would like to have.
A personal conversation with the CO. The night before the CO was to leave our congregation, I had a need to stop by and visit with him. I was conducting a counseling session with some JW men who were alcoholics. I did this as an act of Shepherding, and with the approval of our other Elders. It was not comfortable for these men to attend the 'worldly' AA meetings, so having the JW equivalent was a godsend to them. It incvolved about ten men from 3 different congregations. We met each week and built one another up, and each man was able to stop drinking.
Unfortunately, the Elders from our sister congregation (we were West and they were East) voiced complaint to me and then the Co while he was visiting. They said that we should not be shepherding men who live in their territory (this was a political move to get even with us for another issue) and they said that such meetings were outside the approved meeting arrangements by the Society. So, I wqas visiting the Co at his trailer to discuss this unique shepherding program.
The CO told me that he had no problem, and in fact, felt that this was an excellent example of how mature men reach out to shepherd as Elder. He said that if the program is helping, then keep it up. But he went on to say, "In this life, when you see that something is right, do it. Stand up, be counted, and don't be afraid to go against the grain. Even if you have to be the odd man out among the Elders, take a stand. And if an issue is serious enough be willing to be disfellowshipped, if necessary, to stnad by what is right and what is godly. Humans come and go, men and organizations come and go, but you only get one chance to live this life, and it pays to be able to sleep well at night."
He went on to say that he would tell the other body of Elders to mind their own business, and instead they should copy the example we set in being creative and willing to see a need and meet it. he said that they sounded like a bunch of sissy Pharisees.
Gawd!, I loved that man. Yes, we were all active and fully JW in our committment. But, somehow there was more to this CO that matched my own sense of individuality. His prison years standing up for what he believed must have taught him something that went beyond what the Society is, and gave him a sense of personal integrity, a sense of history, and a sense of how short this life is and the importance of being true to oneself. He had the balls to pass this view and sensibility along to others and to me. [He was the only CO who was never bothered by my being of the Anointed]
This CO was well into his golden years when I met him. He likely retired many years ago, and I suspect that he may have passed away by now. He had other good qualities and fun ways that I don't have time to highlight here. But, he was an inspiration to me, not only in my service as an Elder, but he reminded me of the strong values I was raised with ... and he rekindled in me the fire, the sense of integrity that later on allowed me to take my first steps to leave the Watch Tower organization.
Who is this unique CO? Like most COs, I am sure he served all over the USA. I believe that he eventually retired to a congregation in northern California, around the Napa or Sonoma wine country valleys. In case you know him, his name is Harry Snow. I hope that he was not a jerk to others, and that my recollection of him was something of an enigma. But, my guess is that if you knew Harry, you likely had a good experience with him. If the Society could appoint more men of personal integrity and rugged individualism as Harry, who valued the Bible above the Society itself, then they would have half a chance of being a worthwhile religion. Thanks to Harry Snow for being one of those decent JWs who contributed something of real value to my life, and helped me become free of the Iron Tower. - Amazing
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To: AlanF ragarding CO
by Amazing inhi alan: you asked on my post about the name of the co who gave the idiotic talk about masturbation.
you wondered if it was don amy.
no, i don't recall meeting don.
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Hi Kent: Thanks for the kind words. If I had all my old books out, I could even do a half way decent job of some good research. But, I am still going through things, and will do that later. But, some of the experiences I have had are more interesting, yet sad in many ways. My next post will be a tribute to a CO who was one of the few I admired. I will post that in a few minutes. Thanks again. - Amazing
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Who are you?
by Kent inmany people do post on this board, and many of the participants do spend a lot of hours every day/week helping others by answering to private mails.
many do get lots of private phone calls, and spend a lot of time talking to people on phone as well.. others are here to discuss, find friends, socialize with others and generally have a good time.
the nice thing about the net is the possibilities of finding new friends.
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Amazing
HI Kent: I think you have a great idea. On that list there is a column to add comments, and one can note there thier screen name on JWD so that we can recognize them. I am on that list, but I have not yet noted my screen name. I have been out long enough and have no remaining reason not to reveal my real name. The only thing holding me back has been to thought that the WTS has trolls here. And, I want to keep them in suspense as to who exactly I may be. But, they should be able to find out, since the Society sent out people to my old congregation to check things out after my certified letter to the Society regarding potential legal action. And, then eventually referred to me at a Circuit Assembly as the Chief Apostate of the Pacific Northwest. Of course there are bigger and badder apostates in that region than me. I was still honored nevertheless.
Amazing
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To: AlanF ragarding CO
by Amazing inhi alan: you asked on my post about the name of the co who gave the idiotic talk about masturbation.
you wondered if it was don amy.
no, i don't recall meeting don.
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Hi Metatron: I can make a post that will highlight some of this in detail. I recall a CO who looked down at the rank and file more than others I have known. I will start with this experience because it had to do with a Circuit Assembly part I had years ago. Maybe some others can highlight some of theirs experiences as well. Also, while I am at it, there is one CO that I will make a positive tribute to. He was one of two COs that I felt was worth a damn. - Amazing
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Internet Security Update
by Amazing ina while back i noted that i was having many hacking attemts along with back door trojans being submitted to my pc.
this number has continued to be about 15 to 20 per day.
i mentioned it again today in another post.
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Amazing
Hi Jan: I forgot. I will try to remember tomorrow. - Amazing
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Internet Security Update
by Amazing ina while back i noted that i was having many hacking attemts along with back door trojans being submitted to my pc.
this number has continued to be about 15 to 20 per day.
i mentioned it again today in another post.
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Amazing
A while back I noted that I was having many hacking attemts along with back door Trojans being submitted to my PC. This number has continued to be about 15 to 20 per day. I mentioned it again today in another post. Just as I am about to leave work, I checked my log and found that no hacking or other negative attempts have taken place other than Ad and Cookie blocking. It is nice to go a day without these events, but I find it interesting that most attempts were from the same source. I highly recommend this program for those who do not yet have a firewall, as it is working very well. - Amazing
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To: AlanF ragarding CO
by Amazing inhi alan: you asked on my post about the name of the co who gave the idiotic talk about masturbation.
you wondered if it was don amy.
no, i don't recall meeting don.
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Hi Alan: You asked on my post about the name of the CO who gave the idiotic talk about masturbation. You wondered if it was Don Amy. No, I don't recall meeting Don. But I did find the name of the CO I mentioned. It is Ray Horton. He was about 60 to 65 years old. I believe that he finally retired.
He was the CO that accompanied me on a Bible Study one time. I had just bought my Areostar Van. It was a used Lease, but only had 15,000 miles. It had a strong smoke smell left over from the previous owner.
When Ray stepped into the van, he started sniffing around, opened the ashtray and looked around for cigarettes. I asked him what the problem was, and he said there is a strange smell in the van and he was trying to place the odor. (I knew what he meant, but decided to toy with him a little.)
I told him that I didn't notice anything, and could he try to be more specific. He asked if I had any smokers in the family. I said no, and asked if that was the odor. He said yes, in a self-righteous way. I told him that was how the van smelled when I bought it, but that I had grown used to it, and hoped it would fade over time.
He suggested using his car. I said no, my van is good enough, and he can just try to ignore the odor. He got a real put-out look on his face, and refused to talk anymore. He was stone dead quiet during the Bible Study. And, he barely said a word to me on our return trip.
He was a strange man, as I have found most COs to be. He had some goofy ideas, and that is why I wondered if the special talk he gave on masturbation was his own contrivance ... stretching the scriptures beyond reason. But, then again, COs get their directions from the Big-O, so I have to believe that he was floating a trial balloon for the Society.
One thing I learned about masturbation talks, is that when they are given, it almost always brings out extra confessions. So, when the JC docket is running low, just schedule a 'special needs' talk on masturbation for the Service Meeting, and then watch the guys come flocking in to fess up.
I wish every JW could understand how Elders really work, the sarcasim they use in talking about the rank and file, and at times the sheer egotistical attitude toward people that develops among many Elders. If the average JW understood how they are really viewed, then maybe many more would leave the organization. - Amazing
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What Drives exJWs to atheism #2
by ros inhello, pathothorns, abbadon, and quester!
quester: .
quester .
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Hi Ros: You said that you were not able to see posts after 'Quester'. Mine was the first after Quester. here it is again:
Hi Ros: Some above have suggested logic as the basis for x-jws to become atheists. I am not sure that pure logic is the reason in and of itself. On the surface, logic should cause one to conclude that the complex universe could as easily be designed as not, and that a wait and see attitude would be more logical.
I think the issue is one of distrust and a willingness to question everything. The distrust seems to have its birth upoin leaving JWs, because one sees that so many things have been twisted, contorted, and even lied about by religious men in leadership. As a person begins to examine other religions, the Bible, ancient cultures, and what various professional critiques have discovered about these basic foundation stones upon which Christianity is built, then the distrust emerges and grows into total distrust of almost anything religious.Upon using science to further the evaluation, serious questons begin to form, and this is where a certain level of logic comes into play as a tool. For example, some good issues are raised with the observation that viruses exist, and are observed to evolve. If the world was a designed and created product of a wise and loving God, then why do these basic lifeforms evolve and harm all living things?
Another example is that of Adam and Eve, their sin, and the impact upon the rest of humanity. God was holding all the cards, made all the rules, and had the power to deal with any situation any way he wants. Atheists and Agnostics find it difficult to believe that God would 'booby-trap' Adam and Eve such that when they eat a peice of silly fruit, that future generations of humans for thousands of years would be born in sickness and death, with a bent toward sinning. How can sin be charged against people who were born with that tendancy? How can God hold people accountable for sin when it was his own design that forced them to sin? These are just a sample of the types of questions that seem to not have any satisfactory answers.
FInally, science leads one to demand reasonable level of proof, not that faith would be totally dissolved, but at least have some level of proof that what we know of God is not merely a product of human invention, being refined with layers and layers of better plausibilities as the centuries advance in science. So far, most any argument advanced in favor of God's existence is based on human conjecture and mere claims that holy books, such as the Bible, is or contains inspiration from God. No real evidence exist that this is not purely human contrivance. So, the skeptical individual who is Agnostic or Atheist learns that anything claiming to originate with God can more than likely be shown to as easily originate with creative human invention.
A good example is prayer. Not one person on this earth can demonstrate that when they pray, God is there lkistening. No one can demonstrate that God talks to them and converses in any real substantive relationship. Claims that prayers are answered as evidence of God can only be made by those who feel that prayers were answered. What about the millions of people who pray for many of the same things and get no answer? The claim is made that God must have said no to them. But, really, it can as easily be that by chance, some people got what they wanted and most people did not, because the law of large numbers and averages is that some people will realize what they want, and most will not. Yet, in all this, the honest person has to admit that they have no real idea whether God was there listening, said yes, or no to them, or that he is not there at all, and the events are then merely interpreted to mean what they think God must have intended for them.
I think the questions you you might now want to ask is What basis do those ex-JWs who retain faith have for continued belief in God? On what rational, logical, or scientific basis do they have to believe in a god? What gives them reason for faith? From an atheist point of view, religious people in today's advanced level of technical and mental evolution, appear to be abuse victims. That is, God keeps ignoring religious people and offering no proof to fulfill their faith, and yet religious people keep coming back for more, even when they are sick and say, dying of cancer or some other loathsome disease. This might be comparable to a women who keeps going back to an abusive husband who says he loves her, and yet he keeps ignoring her needs, and allows outsiders to harm her, while he sits and watches, having the power to protect her, but does nothing. Does this not make God appear to be more of a ficticious person, an invention of wishful thinking?
These are the questions religious people need to answer with more than well contrived plausibilities. Religous people need to provide some solid basic for faith. Faith is fine in and of itself, but must be anchored in something solid. As Paul put it, faith is the evidence demonstration of realities though not beheld. As a person of science, I have never seen electricity, but as an electrical engineer and researcher, I have seen the evident demonstration of its reality, the law combined with the theory, such that I have full faith in the existence of electricity, and can demonstrate it to others.
This, Ros, is an example of what atheists and Agnostics need, especially those of the scientific variety, in order to develop an honest and truthful response to the possibility of God's existence. Then, faith may develop, but it must be accompanied by trust. Atheists and Agnostics find it hard to trust the God of the Bible who comes across as a bipolar schizoid, an angry jealous God who zaps them with snakes, wandering in the dessert for 40 years, and all kinds of wars, etc. and then when Jesus arrives, God seems like the new improved Mr. Nice Guy who never meant to harm anyone. Even them, God retains the desire to wipe out unbelievers at Armageddon by popping their eyes out, birds eating their flesh, and in some churches, these people then go to hell and burn for eternity while the Devil stabs them with a pitch fork.
We as Christians have got to completely and honestly, with total openmindedness revisist our entire basis for belief in, faith in, and all claims about God, and see what it is that we can truthfully demonstrate with evidence, even if certain realities cannot be beheld ... much like demonstrating the existence and function of electricity while people still cannot see electricity. We need to do this, not with plausible comparative illustrations, but with rock solid and concrete evidenciary demonstration that proves the God's existence is more than human fantasy and wishful thinking.
Amazing
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Finally, an interesting Christian!
by Marilyn infrom the australian age newspaper: .
john shelby spong, the retired episcopalian bishop who calls for a new reformation of the christian faith, was born in north carolina in 1931. he was raised, he says, in a church that taught him blacks were inferior and that segregation was the will of god, that women were second-class and did not deserve equal rights within the church, that jews were evil and responsible for killing jesus and that homosexuals were either mentally sick or morally depraved.
"i have spent my entire life getting out from under that upbringing," he says.. in 1948, he sought to involve young black episcopalians at a youth convention and was over-ruled by his bishop.
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Hi Marilyn: Spong is somewhat an enigma. His teachings and writings defy traditional Christian belief and at times are contra-christain. Yet, he is asking many of the right questions in an honest framework. He just does not have as many good answers. I do agree with his observation that Christianity is at a historical threshold, but I am not certain where traditional Christianity will go from here. But, I think that Spong and other acclaimed Christians need to ask even more basic questions and provide more solid answers as I discussed in my response to Ros this morning. - Amazing