Posts by Markfromcali

57

What religion does Steven Hassan practices?

by cyberjesus in

do you know?

i think i saw a video stating he is now jewish?

i am not certain, does anybody know?.

Markfromcali

kind of ad hominem logic
CJ: evidence please

Are we really going to play this game? I'm sure you know what ad hominem means, and notice I said ad hominem LOGIC, not fallacy as it is not necessarily a fallacy. In the other thread you did raise the issue of the fact that he believes in God being a potential problem, didn't you? So it may or may not be an issue with his work, but the point is it simply does not get at the actual content of his work directly, and if we want to talk about mind control stuff we can simply talk about the content, rather than infer things that may, or may not have a bearing on what he's written.

57

What religion does Steven Hassan practices?

by cyberjesus in

do you know?

i think i saw a video stating he is now jewish?

i am not certain, does anybody know?.

Markfromcali

Would yoube able to distinguish what's true and what's not from his work without the automatic change in perception given this personal detail? You don't have the belief that if you read his stuff you'll automatically be under some kind of influence do you? If something is reasonable don't you believe it's self evident if you can just look at it for what it is?

Is fear also at work here? Otherwise why not actually consider the material and put it on the table, rather than going with this kind of ad hominem logic? I'll go with the actual content, rather than perception of the person whether it's positive or negative.

8

How do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

by cyberjesus in

if you are so certain of what you believe... how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

did you know that self deception is natural brain mechanism?.

here is an interesting video for you.

Markfromcali

Well if there is change and development there can't just be one natural state can there? It would change over time whether you're talking about individual or collective development. One can talk about the nature of consciousness apart from the human experience and say things that are rather abstract, but that would be different and not particularly useful.

As far as the human experience is concerned, I think neoteny is a good description as I recently read Jaron Lanier describe. Human beings do not rely on instinct so much but instead have these juvenile characteristics extending into adulthood, a part of that is it allows us to continue learning but those characteristics can also be leveraged to create a kind of arrested development and foster dependency on outside agencies. Creativity and imagination can enable you to function better, or it can be used to reinforce an immature and simplistic state. (for therapeutic purposes it may be appropriate to revisit those stages for a limited time though)

I think most people can only cope with working with thoughts in the context of one belief/value system, but at another stage of development entire value systems rather than the thoughts in those systems become the objects that you work with, which obviously involves a much greater level of complexity. I do think that there can be an intuitive sense of this though, after all there are all sorts of details involved but that is not necessary to get a sense of where someone is coming from.

So there are natural states, and as you know there is social pressure so the only way for there to be any clarity about that is if you can separate or at least distinguish people from the greater social context to see what's going on and what is possible. When learning through various types of media you'd also want to be aware of the biases of the media, whether it's just reading books or something digital and interactive.

Overall I think this is why it is essential to approach issues like mind control from a developmental point of view, where there is an effort toward psychological maturity to a different order of consciousness and therefore an uplifted mental capacity for the individuals involved. It is fine to describe the processes and techniques involved, but ultimately you'll only be capable of being free from that kind of influence if you are capable of changing perspectives as easily as you change clothes - otherwise there is always the possibility of a more subtle and sophisticated technique taking hold.

10

What luck! We were born into the TRUTH!

by sabastious in

ever have that conversation with your parents or elders?.

"no need to double check our doctrines, you are lucky that you don't have to put in the hours to prove the truth.

you were born into it!

Markfromcali

Think about what that statement actually says, it actually confuses nature with nurture. You are in fact born into the truth in the sense that you were not yet indoctrinated in anyway as a baby! Of course what happens is you were born to parents and a society that will be obscuring that natural state with an acquired world view that is regarded as the truth.

"No need to double check our doctrines, you are lucky that you don't have to put in the hours to prove the truth. You were born into it! Don't you feel lucky?"

Clearly whoever says this does not understand that there is a difference between conditioning and thinking, and feel that thinking is not required if you are conditioned/programmed the "right" way. It's so nice to live life on autopilot and not worry about a thing, such is the nurturing gift of the Mother ORGanization - it demands no more conscious awareness than that of a morgue.

8

How do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

by cyberjesus in

if you are so certain of what you believe... how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

did you know that self deception is natural brain mechanism?.

here is an interesting video for you.

Markfromcali

It's actually even closer or more immediate than that. What is the self that is being deceived? What does it consist of? If it is a set of beliefs and there's not the awareness that they're just beliefs, and you are still there in spite of how they change, then the self construct is a deception - it's basically a false self. It's just who you believe yourself to be, not who you are. And belief is a mental process, so it has to be constantly reinforced or revised precisely because it is not who you are, and that process of rationalization is self-decetion.

Aside from clearing your mind the opposite actually works pretty well too. If you constantly try to think in different ways, (NOT just acquire content) you are less likely to identify with any of those perspectives, and anything you do believe in would not be due to blind repetition because you're always changing it up, but rather based on what makes sense given consideration of all of what you've learned.

Of course, the religious mindset is one that is not keen on consideration of other perspectives, if anything it only pretends to considers them in a superficial way, when what is really happening is they are rationalizing or adapting the new information into their existing beliefs, even if it means misrepresenting the other views - not that they are particularly interested in what those are in the first place! And of course if their own beliefs are under scrutiny, they don't actually address any inconsistencies specifically, but generalize perhaps in the form of attacking the person raising the issue, since he's from the "other" group, as Trivers points out. This is of course because it's about ones contrived or conditioned sense of self rather than what is true, that fundamental mistake therefore colors everything that is considered.

8

How do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

by cyberjesus in

if you are so certain of what you believe... how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

did you know that self deception is natural brain mechanism?.

here is an interesting video for you.

Markfromcali

Link to the book Chomsky mentions:

http://www.amazon.com/Washingtons-China-National-Security-Globalism/dp/1558495371/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289150190&sr=8-1-fkmr0

3

Mind Control related info

by Markfromcali in

jw
friends

so i thought it'd be nice to have a thread that would have it all in one place, here's an interesting bit about it showing up in architecture:.

when we walk into a gothic cathedral, for example, we invite the building to inspire us.

we understand and accept that the huge, pointed arches symbolically reach to the heavens ... when we enter, the external world disappears and we are transported into another.

Markfromcali

So I thought it'd be nice to have a thread that would have it all in one place, here's an interesting bit about it showing up in architecture:

When we walk into a Gothic cathedral, for example, we invite the building to inspire us. We understand and accept that the huge, pointed arches symbolically reach to the heavens ... When we enter, the external world disappears and we are transported into another. We lose our sense of bearing and become vulnerable to the second battery of psychological tricks.
These structures utilize more subtle design features that only an art-history student would be able to discern. Most of us are unaware, for example, that the shadowy band of arches and columns beneath the highest set of windows is called the "triforium," or that its architectural purpose is to evoke fear. It is an optical trick: Filled with slightly hidden doorways on inaccessible balconies--often leading nowhere at all--the triforium draws our eyes but provides us with no answers. It is meant to remind us of secret cabals within the church, and the mysterious knowledge they possess.
The miraculous architecture and its more subtle coercive cues quite forcibly convince us of the power of the religious institutiou to which it was dedicated.
In the Middle Ages, the coercive power of architecture was so well appreciated, in face, that builders formed secret societies dedicated to keeping these technologies to themselves. Very few people understood how a vaulted arch was actually constructed, or why it defied gravity. Architects and the institutions they served maintained their authority by keeping this information guarded--the same way technology companies protect hi-tech secrets today.

-Coercion by Douglas Rushkoff

Darpa Wants Remote Controls to Master Troop Minds

by Markfromcali in

the pentagons blue-sky research arm wants to trick out troops brains, from the areas that regulate alertness and cognition to pain treatment and psychiatric well-being.

and the scientists want to do it all from the outside in with a gadget installed inside the troops helmets.

remote control of brain activity using ultrasound, the defense departments armed with science blog promises.. arizona state university neuroscientist william tyler has been working with funding from the army research laboratory for years.

Markfromcali

The Pentagon’s blue-sky research arm wants to trick out troops’ brains, from the areas that regulate alertness and cognition to pain treatment and psychiatric well-being. And the scientists want to do it all from the outside in — with a gadget installed inside the troops’ helmets. “Remote Control of Brain Activity Using Ultrasound,” the Defense Department’s Armed with Science blog promises.
Arizona State University neuroscientist William Tyler has been working with funding from the Army Research Laboratory for years. That neurotechnology work has now caught the eye of Darpa, which awarded his lab a Young Faculty Award to improve upon non-invasive approaches to brain stimulation.
“When people ask what this kind of device could do, I ask them what their brain does for them,” Tyler tells Danger Room. “The brain serves all the functions of your body, and if you knew the neuroanatomy, then you can start to regulate each one of those functions.”
Now, Tyler and his research team have created a “transcranial pulsed ultrasound” that’s able to stimulate a myriad of brain circuits from the outside in. The device has already proven capable of targeting deep brain regions, unlike existing methods. And it’s capable of zeroing in on extremely specific brain zones, as small as two or three millimeters. Plus, prototype devices are small enough to be fitted inside a typical helmet.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/09/remote-control-minds/#ixzz14KsDWeXa

Back to the front, you will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front, you will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front, you coward
You servant, you blind man

-Disposable Heroes by Metallica

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F0kK45lVyk

4

In Thrall To A Cult: How The Unwary Fall Victim To Mind Control

by Bangalore in

in thrall to a cult: how the unwary fall victim to mind control.. .

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/in-thrall-to-a-cult-how-the-unwary-fall-victim-to-mind-control-20101016-16odx.html.

bangalore.

Markfromcali

http://www.theage.com.au/national/alleged-leader-of-cult-works-as-psychologist-20101016-16ody.html?from=age_sb

Ms Lakaev is now working as a government-employed psychologist at the Ashmore Community Mental Health Service near Surfers Paradise.

Complaints against her by former acolytes have been investigated once by Queensland’s health regulator, but no action taken. The national health regulator will not comment except to say Ms Lakaev ‘‘has current registration and is therefore deemed fit to practise’’.

She begged The Sunday Age not to refer to her work at Ashmore. She said: ‘‘I don’t harm people, I’m really good at my job, my clients are fine, my patients are fine.’’

16

Wanna waste your time? Attack someones personal beliefs.

by cyberjesus in

i know many of us feel the strong need to share with our loved ones or with people we care the new findings we encounter day to day.

it happened to me when i opened my eyes and discovered the truth about the truth.. but even after i left i continued researching and studying other topics and of course as i had new discoveries i encountered that people were not very open to hear new information that went against what they believed.. at the beginning i thought they were close minded by not listening to opposing points of view.

as i continued my research i realized that their decision to defend their beliefs was the result of cognitive dissonance.. this phenomenom is experienced not only by members of a cult by almost all of us.

Markfromcali

The first sentence of the Wikipedia entry says: "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously." Strictly speaking, holding and even entertaining them is not a problem unless you actually believe in the ideas to some extent. After all, you don't have to have anything invested in an idea just to think about it, and you can understand that if someone believed this or that then such and such would follow without having it be your belief. But as CJ points to, it really ends up being cognitive dissonance for both parties if it's some tug of war thing. The process is not just in one brain, but it becomes a negotiative process between the individuals involved, both trying to come to some balance when none of it needs to be identified with in the first place.

This is why it's funny to see people repeatedly make the obligatory "I agree," "I disagree" or "everyone is entitled to their belief" comments, where they don't actually looking at what the ideas say. The first two is only a statement of position, and often we see those responses (which might start with such a proclaimation) say pretty much nothing about the original message, and likewise the third is a kind of conversation stopper. I say if all people wants to do is to put their ideas out there to the world, repeatedly, over and over... sure, go right ahead - but if you're not actually interested in discussing anything it might as well be a kind of natural automatic disfellowshipping right there. Why should anyone acknowledge you in any way when you are really not interested in acknowledging what they have to say in any meaningful way? Oh yes, we can also continually repeat "well that's your opinion and I have mine" but what is the point of even saying it after a while? Just to project some sense of how civil you are? The natural outcome of this would seem to be that one starts to resemble an automated process, little more than a chat bot if you will.

Or to put it another way, if the unexamined life is not worth living, as Socrates said, then is the unexamined mind worth talking to?