Markfromcali

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Posts by Markfromcali

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  23

  At what point would the average witness start to question their beliefs?

  by skittles4u in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  would it be after this "system" continued on and on and on, knowing armageddon hasn't happened.

  how about the issue of love, the fact that it isn't as great as they claim .

  at what point would the masses start wondering ' hum, maybe nothing is coming after all'.

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  Markfromcali

  When they question themselves and start looking at the reality of the world around them.
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  117

  Signs of an Awakening Kandalini!!

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  paste and clip:.

  http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/ksigns.html.

  signs and symptoms of awakening.

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  Markfromcali

  Ross: Yeah, or more strictly speaking really the personal aspect, that's why traditions like Advaita talk about impersonality. In the beginning someone might still speak and think in personal terms, but the difference is theres no longer that center of identification, there is now freedom from that. While some might think the word impersonal means cold and unloving, its really more inclusive in that it no longer excludes the impersonal.

  Also, you can't really say what is the full holistic expression for any given individual, everyone is going to be different. In a certain sense those hard core monastics would seem to be the perfect model, and yet put in say the modern western world they are totally out of context, even if enlightened. That's the nice thing though, it isn't about the form of the expression, or any particular combination of characteristics. In the bigger picture of oneness its more about what facilitates the unification of that greater oneness, not some idealized Mr. or Ms. perfect enlightenment. That to me is what real enlightenment is about, and that is why the Taoists say the sage may be someone you are hardly aware of. While the religious experts are talking about all the spiritual concepts, the real enlightened one might be the one sweeping the floor.
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  26

  The Minds of Billy Milligan

  by Steve Egner in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  "the minds of billy milligan" was written by daniel keyes, who may be better known for his work, "flowers for algernon.".

  a few of the remarks made in recent threads regarding "enlightenment" and "spiritual awakening" made me recall the book, although it's been roughly 20 years since i've read it.

  i can still remember the day i bought it, at my favorite half price books on guadalupe, in austin, tx.. unlike "flowers for algernon", tmbm is non-fiction.

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  Markfromcali

  Mark "Well, obviously, this just goes to show the different ideas people attribute to enlightenment." Mark, I do not attribute or even relate the experience of Billy Milligan to the process of enlightenment. Had I believed them to be related, I would have posted the comment as a continuation of the Kandalini thread. My recollection of the book was triggered by the Kandalini discussion, and I'm interested in possible explanations. While it sounds as though people pursue enlightenment in many different ways, Milligan's experience was tragic, involuntary, and gut wrenching to read.

  Steve, I didn't think you thought that, but clearly some people attribute enlightenment to having special knowledge or powers, and I just wanted to address that point. From a technical perspective my post probably wasn't all that informative, but basically I just want to point out that even if there is special knowledge or power, there may be suffering. Rather than diving into this particular issue, I think it is good to take a step back and look at the extremes of the dynamics of fragmentation and unification. Sometimes an intellectual analysis is not all that helpful, because essentially the mental activity is again one of taking apart. Basically I could care less about access to special knowledge or ability, or understanding such phenomena, its like where the bible says if you have all these things but do not have love, you are nothing. Likewise having sophisticated thought systems to frame it without an appreciation of this truth will not bring about healing. You may be able to affect therapeutic change, but in the end what you want is someone to be a coherent whole. I suppose this might technically be considered off topic, but I don't intend to hijack - just wanted to throw that in there.

  LT: That one statement about taking a birth was of course not the main point I was making, but as a side point taking a birth doesn't necessarily mean reincarnation. Aside from say the Tibetans, Buddhists tend to talk about rebirth, which is a different concept. After all you got that no self thing, not one or many, but just not. There's always change, even if some patterns are repeated.

  Edited to add: To put this in context, I am of course not just talking about an individual psychological level, although this general principle can be used to understand the dynamics involved on that level.
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  26

  The Minds of Billy Milligan

  by Steve Egner in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  "the minds of billy milligan" was written by daniel keyes, who may be better known for his work, "flowers for algernon.".

  a few of the remarks made in recent threads regarding "enlightenment" and "spiritual awakening" made me recall the book, although it's been roughly 20 years since i've read it.

  i can still remember the day i bought it, at my favorite half price books on guadalupe, in austin, tx.. unlike "flowers for algernon", tmbm is non-fiction.

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  Markfromcali

  Well, obviously this just goes to show the different ideas people attribute to enlightenment.

  I find it personally challenging to explain such events.

  I'm gonna go off this statement with my comment, in that the personal, personality can be the challenge. Personality isn't a problem, its identification with it - or the basic movement of grasping and averting that they talk about in Buddhism. It may sound simplistic, but in principle I think its easy to see that whether you're dealing with one personality or 24 its a sure fire way to produce suffering and frankly insanity, its just a matter of degree. Whether or not there is access to extraordinary mental or physical power, knowledge and what have you is besides the point. There are a lot of self-improvement oriented spiritual paths, but I would point out that this is fundamentally different in focus from those that seek to dissolve the insanity of self.

  Viewed another way, if we're talking about a Self that is all inclusive, then we're talking about dissolving that insanity, its just a matter of scale. One path essentially emphasizes separation, (working on this self or me as opposed to others) the other is a matter of unification, or you could say love. I would rather have love than apparant powers that comes about as a result of abuse. One spiritual teacher I know has a rather out of context quote (because he doesn't talk about that stuff) in the middle of his book saying 'Before I took this birth I decided to give up all powers to show beings how to live by love alone.' Whether you believe in past lives or whatever, the sentiment is clear.
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  117

  Signs of an Awakening Kandalini!!

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  paste and clip:.

  http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/ksigns.html.

  signs and symptoms of awakening.

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  Markfromcali

  There are several different concepts being discussed on this thread, that may or may not bear any relation to one another. They may occur concurrently, but often have little to do with each other.

  Some of these are:
  Kundalini awakening
  Enlightenment / stripping of ego
  TaiChi / QiQong / Energy work

  Okay Ross, this is the thing:

  Energy work can obviously be done by anybody who wants to practice it, but there's a certain level where you might say a different intelligence comes into play and that does have to do with awakening. Strictly speaking when you are trying to do it such as the practice of Kundalini yoga, which I understand has a Taoist equivalent, (the directions of the microcosmic orbit is called the water and fire path, and Kundalini energy from the base of the spine is referred to as the wind path) then that's actually the mind faking it. But this energy can unfold in a fairly natural and progressive way in someone's practice when they do get to such a point, for whatever reason it just kind of happens in a shorter period of time for some people, maybe without practice and would then naturally be more intense. It also depends on how out of whack you've been, because its basically a restoration of the natural flow of energy. This is where it can help to have some foundation in this kind of work, otherwise one can become very depleted physically. But I don't want to paint a picture like this is some big serious thing, for example some people in the east calls themselves Tai Chi "players." That is the best attitude with which to approach it.

  How this relates to enlightenment is its a matter of consciousness, so that's why I say just because these things are happening it doesn't necessarily mean the person is enlightened. IF the process is completed and thorough it obviously would include the mind, but for example there may be a Tai Chi master who has mastery over the body but still have some psychological egoic identification, they may never see the need to address that (or the concept may not even occur to them) because they are more interested in the body. Even when someone is intellectually enlightened (so to speak) it doesn't necessarily mean the psychological aspect is included, atleast completely. Because the mind and body are one there is a transformative process for both, so you could say it's a matter of the unfolding of that process, which is going to look different for different people - it doesn't mean everyone becomes physically adept and/or geniuses once that's completely actualized. If you think about it a lot of it has to do with previous training, for a monastic obviously all the study and meditation practice will kind of come together - with an ordinary guy they might just kind of really show up in whatever form their life happens to take.

  So when I say someone is enlightened, I don't refer to the completion of this process (which is what I was getting at with it as a developmental process) - but rather whether identification with the personality structure has been seen through. I think this would be an accurate way to say "this person is enlightened", because that's where ego comes in. This transformative process can continue to happen or it can happen before this point, chances are there is some both before and after - it usually doesn't all culminate at one point, and there is atleast some work before. I remember a Sufi teacher saying something to the effect of things never working out the way you think, and it usually comes through your least developed faculty - so perhaps it can be viewed as a sort of balancing out so that it becomes a more coherent whole, it being all one.
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  117

  Signs of an Awakening Kandalini!!

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  paste and clip:.

  http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/ksigns.html.

  signs and symptoms of awakening.

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  Markfromcali

  It may seem that way, but suppose for a second that the actual enlightened attitude would be that we're all the same, and it matters about as much as if you are part of the Mickey Mouse club - that would put a whole different spin on it wouldn't it?

  Not really. There is still someone claiming to be enlightened and a member of the club, regardless of how trivial it is.

  Why would you say that? Actually people don't necessarily go around talking about it, but if it comes up without you even initiating it and you talk about it, that doesn't mean you have some elitist attitude. I happen to be a man, you can say that puts me in a 'club' - but I don't go around claiming this, but there is just a recognition of that fact. If I happen to talk about being a man for some reason I don't think that would automatically mean theres an attitude about it, but obviously even that phrase can have such an implication depending on the usage. (be a man!) If I believed that being a man is better than being a woman or something that would be one thing, but if my view is just that we're different (or same, as in all human) then it doesn't mean the same thing.

  Of course this is the same with the word 'enlightenment.' Because there is this connotation that it is some high and mighty thing, people think anyone talking about being enlightened is saying something to the effect of how great they are. As it has been pointed out in this thread, its a matter of the death of the ego - in other words the death of (or seeing through) a fictitious self, which would include any such attitude. It is not an attainment at all, there is nobody left to claim any attainment. So yes, if someone was going around thinking in terms of being special in some sense it is questionable - but in this sense it clearly means they are not actually enlightened.

  By the way, in this kind of spiritual context enlightenment is only the beginning. I don't want to distract with any spiritual words, so lets say it is like another cycle of development, as with childhood and adulthood. The thing with this is because enlightenment is actually a recognition of the nature of self, there can be a kind of development without that recognition. So strictly speaking you might have someone who is kind of spiritually developed, even has this thought as an intellectual understanding, but is not actually enlightened. On the other hand, you might have someone who is just like Joe Schmo down the street but recognizes this and hasn't gone the distance so to speak.

  Its sort of like psychological and chronological/biological development of a person, there are some mature kids and there are some adult infants. In the first case the kid may be psychologically mature but need to grow up physically, and in the second the guy may be an old man but need to grow up psychologically to catch up. One isn't better than the other, in the first case the kid may miss out on the joys of childhood, in the second case the man is not ready for the responsibilities of adulthood. If it was more balanced, then the kid can just be a kid, the adult can be an adult. You wouldn't say being a child is better or worse than being an adult. If anything the truth is the great equalizer in that you are just what you are, trying to be something you're not is where it gets kind of messed up.

  Give me an honest, totally unenlightened person any day - to me the honesty is where the great beauty is.
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  13

  Different Roads

  by simplesally in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "people take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness.

  just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.

  " (h. jackson brown, jr.) .

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  Markfromcali

  Sometimes people just want someone to listen to them, even if they ask you what you think they may not really mean that. I sometimes go against better judgement and make a comment anyways just to put the info out there, and usually it doesn't go anywhere. So I would say to look at whether they really want the advice in the first place, and even if they want your thoughts at a certain point you might just flat out ask them do you really want this to change? That would be a different focus than just an idea. You could just as easily lay out all the possible options, it doesn't have to be limited to what you think is best. If I don't have anything else to say, I just say so.
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  117

  Signs of an Awakening Kandalini!!

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  paste and clip:.

  http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/ksigns.html.

  signs and symptoms of awakening.

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  Markfromcali

  Princess said:

  It's the whole "I'm enlightened and you're not" attitude that bothers me. Like it's some sort of club that some are invited (or perhaps forced) to join, and others are not.

  It may seem that way, but suppose for a second that the actual enlightened attitude would be that we're all the same, and it matters about as much as if you are part of the Mickey Mouse club - that would put a whole different spin on it wouldn't it?

  Did someone mention breasts?

  B.

  Did somebody say McDonalds? Supersize me.
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  26

  The problem with ecstatic religious experiences...

  by logansrun in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for skeptics, true believers and people like me.

  i have heard or read, on this forum and in other mediums, of people who claim to have had experiences that can only be described as "ecstatic, mystical, spiritual, supernatural" etc.

  they all claim that the experience was real, in fact, more real than reality itself.

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  Markfromcali

  The problem with experiences is simply that it is only an experience, religious or otherwise.

  People who have intense experiences tend to want to take issue with that, there is clearly the position that a certain class of experiences are special. I would point out that this indicates an attachment to experience if nothing else. I've been there myself. Although it may not have all the same exact bells and whistles, I know that attachment and see it clearly when it sticks out like a sore thumb.

  This is not to say the experience is not significant, but it's important to put things in context here. An experience is something limited in time, if you're talking about religious experiences then it has something to do with ultimate reality. How is a relative experience - and they are all relative - going to say anything about the absolute? An experience has a beginning and an end, by any system of spirituality that is not the case with ultimate reality.

  For those who are so inclined - what is it that has the experience? As I've mentioned in my posts before, stop focusing on the content for a second and look back at that which is experiencing.
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  117

  Signs of an Awakening Kandalini!!

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  paste and clip:.

  http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/ksigns.html.

  signs and symptoms of awakening.

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  Markfromcali

  You bring up the most important point. It's all about knowing yourself, seperating the "I" from the real "I" and finding out what that is.

  This may sound like a matter of semantics, but it's important to be clear here. There is no separation, but there is a distinction. You are just as real as anything else out there, but it's a matter of what that is. If one takes the word separation literally then you might have a sort of dissociative identity going on.