Posts by paulE

37

Jesus' Human Body

by UnDisfellowshipped in

have you noticed that when jesus christ, the son of god, the lord of lords, said something in the bible that the watchtower society disagrees with, the society will either (1) ignore it almost completely or (2) talk about that scripture, but then, they will twist it around to mean the exact opposite of what he plainly said?.

a good example of this is the insight book (volume 2), page 1,083 ("temple"):on one occasion, when the jews demanded a sign from jesus, he replied: "break down this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.

" the jews thought he was speaking of the temple building, but the apostle john explains: "he was talking about the temple of his body.

paulE

First I must say that I appreciate the depth of knowledge that is displayed on this board at times. It is helpful to me, as I like to continually check my beliefs, to make sure that they are not based on any lingering residue of JWism.

I used the words in 1 Corinthians 15 to speak of Jesus resurrected body, because I believe that the resurrected body of Jesus and his followers will be very similar. Paul, in this chapter, calls Jesus the "firstfruits". How do firstfruits differ from the rest of the crop, except that they were harvested first? My reading of Galatians 3:21 gives me the same impression. Jesus will change or transform our lowly body, the body of our humiliation, to be like his glorious body. I feel that our resurrected body will be essentially the same in it's composition as that of Jesus.

Using Paul to prove physical resurrection is controversial. From the first century, gnostics used Paul to prove that Jesus was not really physical, before or after his resurrection. Mainline Christians used the same verses to prove the opposite. But, in the late first and through out the second century, Christians such as Clement, Ignatius, Justin, Ireneus and Tertullian clearly taught Paul's words as meaning a physical body.

It is true that the Gospel writers wrote from 40 to 70 years after the fact. But, I believe that there are good indications that they recorded very early oral traditions that started immediately after the resurrection. Here are a few of my reasons.

1. Gospel accounts say that women were the first witnesses at the empty tomb and to see Jesus. This was a time period when women were considered dubious witnesses, not even allowed to testify in court. If the stories were a later invention, wouldn't more reliable witnesses be chosen?

2. The appearance accounts contain no scriptural fulfillments. This is strikingly different from the rest of the gospel accounts. Everything from place of birth to riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was pointed out to fulfill a Hebrew Bible prophecy. This indicates to me that the stories spread before there was time to re-examine the Scriptures in the light of the recent event.

3.No mention of human salvation. Jesus is resurrected, we saw him, we touched him, we ate with him and he told us to go witness to the world. Actual reports of what happen. The stories spread before there was time to reflect on the significance, as Paul later does. Peter does also.

4. The bewilderment in describing Jesus body. It could be seen, felt, it could eat, it had scars, it could go through locked doors, it could ascend. Just the events that could be seen, felt, or heard. The stories spread early, before time for theological reflection as later done by Paul.

For these reasons, I accept the the Gospel accounts of Jesus resurrection and appearances to be reflections of the stories that were told by the very early Christians.

Once again, my friends, I appreciate your input. I count it as a contribution to my spiritual growth.

37

Jesus' Human Body

by UnDisfellowshipped in

have you noticed that when jesus christ, the son of god, the lord of lords, said something in the bible that the watchtower society disagrees with, the society will either (1) ignore it almost completely or (2) talk about that scripture, but then, they will twist it around to mean the exact opposite of what he plainly said?.

a good example of this is the insight book (volume 2), page 1,083 ("temple"):on one occasion, when the jews demanded a sign from jesus, he replied: "break down this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.

" the jews thought he was speaking of the temple building, but the apostle john explains: "he was talking about the temple of his body.

paulE

The eye witnesses of Jesus resurrected body were seeing something that had never been seen before. They made no attempt to explain it in detail, they just told what they saw. The body of Jesus was the same, yet strangely different. They could see Jesus, hear him, they touched his body; it had the evidence of the nails and the wound in his side; they saw Jesus eat fish, even cook breakfast for them. They recognized that it was Jesus, yet they wanted to ask at times "who are you". In his resurrected body Jesus could appear in a locked room, or quickly vanish, or ascend upwards.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, described the resurrected body in the same way. It would be the same, but different. There would be continuity, so that it would be the same person; yet there would be discontinuity in that the resurrected body would have added features. The resurrected body would be incorruptable and immortal. Paul used the illustration of a seed. When planted in the ground, it eventually grows. The stalk and leaves that grow do not look exactly like the seed, but has new features that the bare seed did not have. Yet, we recognize that it has continuity or sameness with the seed.

The eye witnesses, Paul, early church fathers, and apologist all struggled to find words that would describe the relationship between our present bodies and the resurrected body. The one thing that they all made clear is that it was definitely a physical body, but in a new, different, strangely wonderful sense.

43

You cannot live forever in paradise on earth

by Gopher in

the watchtower society has, for about seven decades, been attracting new volunteer workers for its field ministry with the promise of life forever on a paradise earth.

even the titles of its main study books since 1968 bear the promise: the truth that leads to eternal life, you can live forever in paradise on earth, and knowledge that leads to everlasting life.

how logical is this hope that leads people to entrust the watchtower with their time, energy and worldly possessions?

paulE

Dear Gopher, I read your post and the responses with great interest. After I left the WTBS, early 90's, I assumed that anything taught by that organization must be totally false.

Now, I believe that in this case, they may be partially right. Even a blind squirrel can stumble on to an acorn now and then. The belief in human life on a restored earth is not unique to JW's. Some Baptist and Pentecostal groups have long held this belief. In recent decades, some religious educators from such varied denominations as Lutheran and Anglican teach a bodily resurrection on a restored earth.

The "logic" behind this teaching is God's purpose for man, stated in Genesis, is finally to be fulfilled through the resurrection of the body to life on a restored earth.

Genesis 1-3 tells us that God created man and woman on earth, and put them into the "paradise of pleasure". The were to "fill" the earth and "subdue" it and have the animals in "subjection".

Man's disobedience ,sin, led to man's seperation from God and to death. The earth was not filled or subdued. Can man's disobedience or even that of Satan, stop God's purpose? Jesus paid the price for man's sin and conquered death by his resurrection. The apostle Paul indicates that this conquest will be completed when Jesus resurrects mankind. The resurrected body will be incorruptable and immortal. Those still alive at the "last day" will have their bodies "changed" or "transformed". In other words, they too will get the "upgraded" body.

A significant scripture is Paul's discussion of the groaning creation in Romans 8. Mankind, the earth, in fact, all creation awaits God's promised restoration.

I know that this post is already lengthy, and addresses issues in general scriptural terms. God forbid that anyone think that I am trying to defend the beliefs of the "blind squirrel", but I think that there is abundant scriptural evidence for bodily resurrection to a restored earth. I will be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested, including comments on the Jewish view of heaven, overpopulation, Luke 23, the sun running out of fuel or emotional satisfaction without procreative powers.

Thanks, PaulE

38

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 5-2-04 WT Study (3-15-04)

by blondie in

are you an elder in the congregation?

timothy 5:17, ephesians 5:23; hebrews 6:10-12).

yes, an elder needs to ?accomplish his ministry fully.?

paulE

To Cygnus,

If you walk up to a well dressed, well groomed person, and closely examine their jacket with a magnifying glass until you find one flake of dandruff, then you are nit picking.

If you observe a dog scratching fleas with both hind paws, while it it bites at other fleas with his teeth, and say "That dog has fleas", that's not nit picking. That is just stating an obvious fact.

Blondie skillfully pointed out a lot of fleas on this dog, uh, WT article.

If people have an important, exciting, TRUTHFUL message, you don't have to prod them to talk about it.

No amount of prodding can make people teach a "ho-hum" message.

Since the F&DS are the one's originating the message, why blame the messengers.

Blondie, I enjoyed your WT summary very much, as always.

10

Crete.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

we're thinking of holidaying there at the end of july.. anybody here ever visited crete?.

got any advice for us?.

englishman.

paulE

"One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." Titus 1:12

Sorry, that's all I remember about the place. Enjoy your trip.

25

How To Defeat a Circuit Overseer ( Elders, Please Read)

by metatron in

jw
friends

paulE

You may want to try this approach. Tell the CO, this story. You could call it a Parable, yeah, a paulEline Parable.

The mailman knocked on my door this morning. He told me that the Postal Department had come to the conclusion that they, Postal Workers, were the only ones who could understand the meaning of the mail that was sent through the system. So, instead of just putting my letters in the mailbox, they would have to read and explain my letters to me. He opened a letter from my dad and read it to me. Dad said that my brother loved me. My mailman explained that what dad meant was that my brother was not really my brother, yet, that maybe, if I was good, he would be my brother in a 1000 years or so. Dad concluded, saying that he would come to visit me when he could. The mailman said that this meant that my dad would be here tomorrow. I grabbed my mail out of his hand. "I want to read it myself." I concluded.

"What do you mean by this?" the CO will ask. "Why do you speak in parables?"

Then you quote Matthew 13:13, with adjustments it says: "Therefore, I speak to you in parables, because seeing you do not see, and hearing you do not hear, nor do you understand."

Hey, it might work.

34

What Made You Realize The WTBTS Was NOT The Truth

by Kevin in

jw
friends

my wife is a jw.. i've been trying to point out the errors of the wtbts but she just doesnt want to hear it.. i'm wonder if some people could share your turning point in regards to your relationship goes.

with the society.

what made you realize that the society was false.

paulE

I couldn't understand how the WTS could teach that things were so wrong doctrinally in 1918 that Jehovah sent his people off to "captivity to Babylon the Great." Yet, at that very same time, those doctrines were judged by Jesus to be such "healthy spiritual food" that he appointed the WTS over "all his belongings".

64

Does the Watchtower Society stunt personal development and growth

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

with so many "responsibilities" given to the witnesses by the "faithful and discreet slave", there is little time for them to do anything these days except sleep - and that is when they're not out preaching at unearthly hours in the morning.. .

the enormous pressure to perform, and to be under the watch of the elders to make sure you perform, is a draining experience.. .

a book i have on sociology says this regarding jehovah's witnesses, when discussing sects, that "they require intensive commitments and demonstrations of belief by members.

paulE

Theocrat, you know this doesn't count as field service time. But, you are making as much headway as you would at a door. None.

7

What is the WT fell?

by paulE in

jw
friends

what would be the consequences to society in general?

would there be enough psychotrist to handle 6,000,000 new patients?.

would office buildings be scrambling to find new janitorial services, since all the "pioneer janitorial service" operators would find real jobs?.

paulE

What would be the consequences to society in general? For example:

Would there be enough psychotrist to handle 6,000,000 new patients?

Would office buildings be scrambling to find new janitorial services, since all the "Pioneer Janitorial Service" operators would find real jobs?

Are there enough job openings to handle all the unskilled, uneducated people who were no longer employed at Bethel?

11

Has this happened to anyone?

by Purza in

jw
friends

so my mother opens the door for a discussion (via email) and i totally freeze up.

i find it almost impossible to tell her how i feel about the jw religion.

when i finally figure out what i want to say, she completely dismisses my thoughts.

paulE

I had tried to explain my concern about some JW doctrines to my wife of twenty plus years. She is a very intelligent woman, a real Bible student. She wouldn't listen to a word. She seperated, I was endangering her spirituality. Before I was df'd, we met for lunch to make an effort to work things out. I again tried to explain my beliefs about 1914, and F&DS. She sat there, her eyes glazed over. When I gave up, she gave me her "terms", that I drop the foolishness and get back to active JWism. She said that I just needed to study more. The real problem was that I had studied too much, enough to see thru it.

What's worse is that I remember talking to some with doubts during my elder days. I tried to answer questions, but always ended by telling them that they just needed to study more, trust in Jehovah, draw close to Jehovah, get to the meetings regularly, spend more time in service. Yeah, that will solve everything. I may have even spouted those stupid phrases to some of you here on this board. If I did please forgive me. Believe me, I begged the true God to forgive me, many times.

A lot of JW's see through the "Truth", but can't bear to leave family and friends. It's hard when your whole life is tied up in it. Just be patient. Things are in turmoil in the congregations. There is still hope that someday, when the time is right for her, she will listen to you.