I'm agnostic, buddhist, unitarian, christian, hindu, muslim....does that count? I wouldn't wear one however I am not opposed to one. I am not appalled or in fear of a cross either. It is an old symbol used before christianity. I view the cross as a good symbol because it means making a continual transformation for the good (in my own mind).
bavman
JoinedPosts by bavman
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How do you view crosses now?
by reneeisorym inif you are a christian, how to you feel about crosses now?.
if you are an athiest, would you wear one?.
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Nice Experience with my "Worldly" Relatives
by bavman inafter da'ing myself three years ago i wanted to get in touch with some of my "worldly" relatives since i had mostly ignored them for quite sometime and because my witness relatives were shunning me.
about the only relative i had a relationship with was my sister who was df'd.
i wasn't quite sure how to go about this because i didn't know what my parents had told any of them if anything.
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bavman
I wonder if he might be one of our compatriots here??:)
Ah, no. That uncle is Seventh Day-Adventist believe it or not. Some interesting background on both "worldly" aunts and uncles. My "blood" aunt and uncle (who are brother and sister) were both studied with by witnesses when they were young along with 5 other siblings. They never became witnesses as the others had although my aunt did supposedly stand on street corners while wearing "watchtower placards" (or whatever they were called). Also, all four of these "worldly" aunts and uncles visited a few years back my witness uncle (who is a member of a branch committee) down in S. America. They even toured the bethel branch there. They understand very well how all this works and as my girlfriend said, 'they don't seem to be intimidated in the least'. My "missionary" uncle who I had been very close to while a witness and even named after is apparently here nearby for a visit but never came to this reception.
Another side note is that one of my cousins that I saw at this reception was one of the people I had sent a x-mas card to a few years ago (he never called). He was very friendly and said he had kept my card along with my number but hadn't had the 'courage' to call. I think sometimes it can be just as uncomfortable for our "worldly" relatives to reconnect but it doesn't necessarily mean they don't want to. I suppose in this situation it is best not to give up but keep opening yourself up to your relatives (if you are in an emotional position to do so).
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Nice Experience with my "Worldly" Relatives
by bavman inafter da'ing myself three years ago i wanted to get in touch with some of my "worldly" relatives since i had mostly ignored them for quite sometime and because my witness relatives were shunning me.
about the only relative i had a relationship with was my sister who was df'd.
i wasn't quite sure how to go about this because i didn't know what my parents had told any of them if anything.
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bavman
After Da'ing myself three years ago I wanted to get in touch with some of my "worldly" relatives since I had mostly ignored them for quite sometime and because my witness relatives were shunning me. About the only relative I had a relationship with was my sister who was Df'd. I wasn't quite sure how to go about this because I didn't know what my parents had told any of them if anything. Also, like I said I had mostly ignored them for years since they weren't witnesses themselves.
I started off easy by sending out a couple christmas cards to a couple of relatives on both sides of the family. I didn't get alot of response except that an aunt who lives not so far away did call me after we had a nice conversation where I explained I wasn't a witness anymore and she understood and said to stay in touch. I have kept in touch with this aunt and uncle through mail and phone periodically. Recently they invited me, my son, and girlfriend to my cousin's (son of another aunt and uncle) wedding. I decided to go although I was unsure what kind of response I would get and wondered if my parents or any other witness relatives would be there. My aunt seemed very open and caring so I we went to the reception.
When I got there I saw my uncle and went up to him reminding him who I was (since it had been about 8 years and he had been in bad health). He said, 'your aunt has been looking for you, let me take you inside.' As I went in a witness aunt and uncle were on there way out for a breath of fresh air and saw me. Well, you would think that aunt had seen a ghost! I immediately said 'hello' and she muttered 'hello' and put her head down and kept walking. Her husband (also my uncle) did say hello with a smile and shook my hand but didn't say more and kept walking. My uncle (the first I mentioned) said to me, 'well...she's not even going to shake your hand!' Lol!
It was a great time! I had two sets of aunts and uncles, a few cousins and 2nd cousins all very happy to see me with hand shakes and hugs. We all sat around a table enjoying each others company. My witness aunt and uncle did come in and sit by us. My witness uncle said a couple things to me but not much and his wife wouldn't say a word to me directly but would talk around me to my girlfriend and son even mentioning my name occasionly. If I looked her way I would gently smile but she looked VERY uncomfortable and would always look away. I imagine she will be talking with my parents about this episode.
One of my cousins asked me and later my girlfriend how I was dealing with all the shunning and he couldn't understand why my family would do it. He said, 'that is so unnecessary!'. They have been dealing with this crap for a long time though so they "get it".
At the end it was time to go and my uncle (from the beginning of my story) leaned in close to me and held onto my hand and said,'I want to tell you something. I know you have lost most of your family but you will ALWAYS have us." I think I might have had a bit of a tear in my eye after that and told him how much I appreciated that and gave him a big hug. More hugs from the others and plans for getting together soon!
To all those lurkers out there who wonder if it worth losing family and friends to be honest with yourself about the borg and follow your instincts and your heart I say: YES! Without a doubt. In time all who are truly friends and family flock together with you...
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Recent E-mail Exchange with my Mother
by bavman indear greg: just a note to thank you for the card and for remembering us on our anniversary.
we had a very nice 45th anniversary.
the only thing that would have made it better is if you and ***(my sister) could have celebrated with us .
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bavman
Thanks for all the replies. I sent a reply of my own to my mom a couple weeks ago but haven't heard back yet. Not sure how Steve Hassan my reply is but hey...I did the best I could and it came from the real me.
Dear Mom,
I do wish I had done more research but then again at the time I guess I thought I had. The problem with the research I had done was it was mostly from only one point of view. Of course, I was only 15 so the limited life experience was against me as well. Also, I became convinced "the end" was very near because of the way "this generation" was taught at the time. A 1989 Awake magazine seemed to confirm this as well when it stated, 'The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century.
I remember that article being talked about with excitement in the family. Dad even mentioned it in a prayer in front of the congregation. Too bad no one mentioned to me it was changed in the bound volume quietly to, "be completed in our day".
I guess really I was just too scared I would die at Armaggeddon very soon if I didn't make a quick decision and get very involved. I do wish I had waited though because I think if I had seen what transpired in our congregation shortly thereafter I would have researched further. It wasn't long after that that I did start researching to some extent and was becoming disillusioned with the whole thing. It was too late though so at the same time I tried to ignore those feelings.
The scripture you indicated about making sure of all things has a meaning (when read in context) of keep making sure of all things. That is what I did, not stopping at 15 but continued, and this is good advice.
When I referred to being pushed into believing I was talking about ****** (my ex-wife) and the elders. That certainly was the case. I was told by ****** she would throw out any books from other churches if they came in the mail and it was a requirement by her (going to meetings and studying the WT pubs.) for staying with me. I was in fact struggling to go to meetings but hadn't made any decision to stop when she pushed me verbally to such an extent that I said 'fine, then I am done with meetings'. She left the next day. This was only one such example of this. Also, the elders were trying to get me to disassociate (by calling on the phone and leaving messages) after I told them I had attended a meeting with Bible students. I hadn't even joined just attended a couple of times. I am not exagerating these things Mom. When I mentioned 'dishonesty' I was saying it would be dishonest for me to go back pretending to believe.
As far as current beliefs well I am glad to hear you are happy but I wasn't and am much happier now. Much of what you wrote is also what Mormons, Moonies, certain Islamic sects (just insert Allah)believe they have the truth. Crazy things are done in the name of that truth. I believe there are common myths that we can all draw on as truth but should always be very careful we don't leave our reasoning ability behind. As Buddha says, 'believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.' Good advice indeed.
I don't pretend I have handled all things perfectly Mom. I am just a human. I am trying though and love you and Dad alot.
Love
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Science and Religion.
by Blueblades inreligion and science, science and religion, so often it's portrayed as a fight to the death, no holds barred.
does there have to be a winner?
i think there's a lot of room for comfortable dialogue, lots of areas with interesting questions of overlap.
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bavman
The more I read about science and religion the more I believe these are ultimately two separate entities and should mostly be kept as such. Science, in my opinion is best at finding and re-finding reality. Religion is at it's best when developing qualities and the human spirit. Problems come in when religion attempts to explain in literal terms how we got here and so forth. These two institutions can do well at keeping each other in check.
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Voluntarily Confessing & Then Getting Reproved or Disfellowshipped
by minimus indo you realize how many contrite witnesses went to the elders to make things right with god and wound up getting disfellowshipped or privately or publicly reproved?
a lot.. did you or anyone that you knew ever get "disciplined" unfairly?
many times, no one would ever know about anything unless it was voluntarily brought up.
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bavman
My impression from many discussions with elders on this is usually matters come up to the elders only because someone does confess. Guilt usually gets the better of them from all the harping and guilt building done at the meetings. At a minimum a person is going to get reproved no matter what because they must be "disciplined " and the "congregation must be kept clean before Jehovah".
Also, the witness view of repentance seems interesting because it really goes beyond "feeling sorry and regret" for something. Someone may be totally depressed and beside themselves with a problem and yet they will be disfellowshipped if a serious sin is repeated. From what I gather "repentance to the jdubs means 'a knowing you will never under any circumstances commit this certain sin again and proving it perhaps by time going by without that sin coming up'. This of course going directly against other things they say but what matters is how the JC looks at it not what is printed elsewhere. This is a real problem for someone with an addiction. Of course, the JC doesn't buy addictions (you are simply wicked). Certain things that are said take on a new meaning when we realize this such as when a witness say's, 'so and so had to be disfellowshipped...they just didn't want to give up smoking...'. Whenever I heard this I thought 'well, he doesn't want to quit'. How wrong! That person actually wanted to quit but couldn't because it was an addiction....
Then again, I know of a case where someone committed rape and yet was only reproved...that's another story...
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Recent E-mail Exchange with my Mother
by bavman indear greg: just a note to thank you for the card and for remembering us on our anniversary.
we had a very nice 45th anniversary.
the only thing that would have made it better is if you and ***(my sister) could have celebrated with us .
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bavman
Thanks Blondie. I will review Hassan's book. Yes, patience I will try to have. I went to meditation tonight. A definite help.
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Recent E-mail Exchange with my Mother
by bavman indear greg: just a note to thank you for the card and for remembering us on our anniversary.
we had a very nice 45th anniversary.
the only thing that would have made it better is if you and ***(my sister) could have celebrated with us .
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bavman
It took my Mom a week but she did respond....
Dear Greg: It is too bad you didn't do more research before you made the decision to dedicate your life an get babtized. That's what we all do . Make sure of all things. I don't know who your referring to that pushed you into believing it or else but that's not the way We do things. If communication between both parties was done it could have saved much grief. Its hard to be a mind reader. Also, I don't know who or what your referring to as being dishonest but I know that's not how truth works either. I've never came across that all the years I've been in the truth. A person can do all the study they want of all religions. Theres only one true God(Jehovah) One Lord. One Bible. One faith. One Babtism. Eph.4: 5. If our beliefs are not based on Gods Word, "2 TIM.3: 14,15" their just a lot of refuse. Out Creator teaches us the right way and we must draw close to him and he will draw close to us. Mens teaching do not draw us close to Jehovah. Satan is the god of this system of things and he is making himself into an "angel of light". He knows he has a short time left. People of all cultures, walks of life are streaming to Jehovahs mountain. We are happy to be part of that too. Isa.2:2-4. Love Mom
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Roof Repair-Could Any Brothers Give a Hand?
by bavman ina friend/co-worker of mine who is an inactive dub told me today that the old hall i went to is getting a new roof.
however, he was upset because only "special" people are being allowed to work on it (himself not included, nor his active, in good-standing father).
it seems you have to be "invited" to work on your own kingdom hall roof now.
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bavman
A friend/co-worker of mine who is an inactive dub told me today that the old hall I went to is getting a new roof. However, he was upset because only "special" people are being allowed to work on it (himself not included, nor his active, in good-standing father). It seems you have to be "invited" to work on your own Kingdom Hall roof now. I knew people working on quick-builds had to be part of the in-crowd but I hadn't heard about this applying to your own hall before. Geez! What is behind this anyway? Legal issues, or what? Anyway, it's too bad because I actually have many fond memories of working on halls (barn-raising style). Just another example of the heart and soul being lost in JW land. Perhaps it's just getting that way all over though...Hmmmm....wonder if the Amish are having these problems?
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Do you still pray/talk to yourself like you used to?or wish very hard?
by Crumpet ini find that i still have an internal dialogue - a bit like i used to when i walked around talking to god like my life depended on it trying to cultivate that elusive relationship with him.
i like to call it internal dialogue because otherwise they could bring in the mental health professionals...don't ask me who "they" are - do i look/act/sound paranoid?!
so before "they" take me away: do you still find you talk to yourself in your head when you see things of especial beauty that might previously have inspired a prayer of thanks (and maybe still do - don't worry i am over with the castigation of the religious, for now!)?
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bavman
I don't pray but I do have internal (hah! almost said eternal) dialog in my head. I am pretty sure everyone does except for the most disciplined. I do meditation practice daily. This with the goal of first of all stilling the dialog in my head...taming my mind if you will.