Apols Internet went down in the q household last night I wrote this yesterday and had to cut and paste it to save it - thanks blondie for your post! All Christianity is built upon vicarious work - Christ died for the dead, the living and the yet unborn. Mormons take the scripture regarding being born of the water and of the spirit literally and to mean baptism. All mankind must therefore be baptised to have even a chance of inheriting the kingdom of god. This gets past the problem of salvation that Christianity has with regards those billions who don't even know of Christ or died in ignorance. The essential baptism is done on behalf of those who the church can find records for ( the rest get done during the millennium ). This is important in Mormon theology because regardless of how good you've been you get stuck in a kind of limbo prison until your baptism has been performed. Once a baptism has been performed for you you can choose to accept Christ or not and the ordinance has been done ( a spirit can't do physical ordinances like baptism ). That the Jews or anyone might not want it done is fine in lds thinking it merely delays the day until the millennium when the work will get done. Since there is no religion in heaven there are no Mormons there so baptism for the dead is not the same as joining the church ( which interestingly is not a saving ordinance in LDS theology - you can be baptised but never join the church and that's fine though in practise the two are synonymous for the living.) Those recorded as having had a vicarious baptism performed on their behalf are not counted in the church numbers. This is not making them Mormons any more than Christ's universal sacrifice makes all mankind Christian. Yes I did formerly post in slight defence of the lds religion ( and I still will if I think the poster is merely taking the mick or saying something untrue ) but it should be clear now I worship no gods anymore. There is a lot more to all this in the Mormon plan but it would divert the thread methinks.
Posts by Qcmbr
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30Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings now Mormons
by designs inboth were baptized and married by the lds posthumously.
also joining the ranks- george washington, adolf hitler, pope john paul.. i wonder if fred franz and ted jareaz made the list..
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Mormons in decline because of the Internet
by slimboyfat ininteresting article.
i've often thought empirically mormons have an even harder sell than jws.
the watchtower merely falsifies the date of the fall of jerusalem.
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Qcmbr
The Internet is having a huge effect for two reasons. Firstly there is a vast array of information that previously was only available in books or in the case of first hand stories not recorded. The second reason is even more powerful. Online people act differently. Face to face two Mormons will rarely discuss deep doctrine, doubts or off colour jokes. Online this all changes and I have seen ( and am currently taking part in ) some very interesting open minded discussions especially on Facebook.
No closed religion can survive inspection or open discussion. The LDS church is collapsing in the UK.
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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Qcmbr
I don't think you understand the concept that as soon as there is a supernatural world then the natural world is merely a permission of that supernatural world. In other words the natural world is no more than the supernatural world enforcing some local laws at a certain time and space, laws which it can suspend ( miracles ) as and when desired.
Thus a natural disaster is mandated by the supernatural world as much as a beautiful delicate flower.
1 could Christ have stopped natural disasters?
2 are you happy to defend your Christ's inactivity in natural disasters?
3 do you subscribe to the argument that morality is merely gods will rather than what actually happens ( so today it may be moral to kill and tomorrow god may decide it isn't)?
4 do you understand why claiming the bible as evidence when it agrees with you but arguing it isn't correct when it disagrees with you is a no different from saying your mental constructs , on religion, are always right? In other words you have no tools with which to examine your statements since you have mentally agreed with yourself that any dissenting information is simply wrong.
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Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings now Mormons
by designs inboth were baptized and married by the lds posthumously.
also joining the ranks- george washington, adolf hitler, pope john paul.. i wonder if fred franz and ted jareaz made the list..
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Qcmbr
Ahem. The whole Christian thing rests upon vicarious activities. Jesus supposedly died for all mankind whether or not they wanted him to , doesn't make them a Christian. Baptism for the dead is the only sensible solution to the fundamentalist baptism interpretation that all men must be born of the water and the spirit. Mormon baptism for the dead is to allow those who have died the option of claiming baptism if they so desire. It no more makes them Mormon than Jesus' death makes everyone a Christian.
If the Catholics were smart they could bless the rain clouds and posthumously sprinkle-baptise all the graveyard inhabitants.
For anyone who thinks baptism is an essential ordinance for salvation how do they propose that it gets offered to all mankind? Mormonism is wacky, it's based in crazy Christianity but it has some elegant logic that ties up loose ends that most Christians leave flapping.
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Would this bug you?
by still thinking ini have a friend, she has been my friend for over 20 years...in that 20 years i have seen her reasonably regularly.
i visit her, she visits me.. the thing that has started bugging me is this...... when i visit her it is normally in the daytime.
i stop in for a cuppa and a chat.
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Qcmbr
Invest in a big diary, inform your friend that you are approaching life with a new mindset and that you want to really get organised ( write that novel, start Zumba classes etc.) and actually plan their next visit into your diary. You can then indicate which is the best time and also plan when you are going over there. Get some activities planned for the evenings so that you can legitimately let them know you aren't available ( evening walks, movies, star gazing, knitting classes etc. whatever floats your boat) and arrange to meet via the diary. You then get to identify what you are expecting ( have an evening outdoor picnic, say 'how about sharing , I'll bring the drinks and a dessert') if she starts to shy away from providing then you pretty much know that she's mooching off you for food and you can charitably accept that and help her out or accept you'll be seeing less of her as you stick with the diary.
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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Qcmbr
Tec - do you ever realise that what you say cannot be correct? Let me put forward a fatal flaw in your thinking.
Natural world without a god
1 natural events occur and sometimes directly or indirectly kill or injure.
2 no supernatural events have been reliably recorded in history of anything stopping those events
3 death and injury only occur because of natural processes
Supernatural world with a christian god
1 there are no natural events it merely appears that way by permission of the supernatural. At any moment the world can be commanded to act differently. Nothing happens therefore without gods tacit approval. Natural looking events that kill and maim occur because the supernatural world either willed them to or allowed chaos conditions to manifest and then allowed the event to occur.
2 all events are permissions of or caused by the supernatural world
3 death and injury are directly caused by a supernatural event in a garden that god knew would occur, encouraged and planned for , utilising the same processes ( pain and death ) to scapegoat a supposed perfect being several thousand years later.
Your defence of god is not backed up by logic, evidence, your holy books ( however much you cherry pick from them ) or by your completely fabricated new creature you fall back to when you don't have an answer. The Christ you describe is not found in your bible or anywhere in recorded history ergo there is only one place that he got described - your head. Very frustrating talking to someone who despite all evidence privileges an illogical imaginary friend over real friends and will describe black as white to maintain the inner picture.
If your Christ has any power in the natural world and allows innocent newborn babies ( so no sin or things to learn ) to be starved, tortured, maimed or killed by natural events then it can only mean he chose to do nothing. He sat on his hands. Either your Christ won't help, can't help or doesn't exist. If that is your loving Christ then you maybe need to have a good think about why you are so morally flawed as to worship such a being.
Sorry to be harsh.
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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Qcmbr
Tec - you have no way of knowing that. Playing the game that he actually healed someone it might have been against their wishes, despite their lack of faith, as a sign or simply to spite Satan. Making up reasons for actions in a largely fictional book even you must admit is not a strong position.
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36
Mormons in decline because of the Internet
by slimboyfat ininteresting article.
i've often thought empirically mormons have an even harder sell than jws.
the watchtower merely falsifies the date of the fall of jerusalem.
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Qcmbr
The LDS church will not survive the internet - I predict it will be no more than a couple of million strong within 20 years. Information is killing it and the majority of new members I've seen are societies vulnerables (single mothers, less well educated etc.) The local church where I used to attend still has the odd baptism every year but it loses a strong established member / member family every year as well.
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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Qcmbr
tec - agree 100% with both your statements
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1495
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff inestimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.
that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.
still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.
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Qcmbr
Cofty - respect